Bokt.nl

Citaat:

wat zou jij dat doen net zolang hem blijven belonen tot hij ermee op houdt??????

oOliesjeOo schreef:

ok allemaal nu ff wat anders. waarom is iederee nnu eigenlijk tegen de manier hoe monty met de paarden omgaat. ik snap egt niet wat iedereen daar nu tegen heeft. en als jij een paard hebt dat onhandelnaar is wat zou jij dat doen net zolang hem blijven belonen tot hij ermee op houdt?????? lijkt me een beetje onlogisch. en bovendien heeft een paard een leider nodig net als in het wild en die gaan ook niet met elkaar om door telkens aub. te zeggen. het leid paard is daar ookdominant. ik vind dat monty en annemarie die positie heel goed nadoen.

AnjaKos schreef:

Ieder heeft een eigen mening, ik vind het heel terrecht wat Monty laat zien, stilstaan is stilstaan dus ja ik geef ook een ruk bij Miro als hij dan door blijft lopen. Monty rukt als het paard beweegt en ontspant als de hengst stilstaat, consequent zijn heet dat ;) Het is vervelender voor het dier als hij de ene keer wel een pas mag verzetten maar de volgende dag weer niet, dan maak je het er voor zo'n dier ook niet makkelijker op.

Citaat:

((Introduction))

When a horse in a round pen is chewing and licking its lips American
trainer Monty Roberts rates this as proof of the success of his work,
that will gain him the respect and the trust of the horse. Robert's
interpretation: The chewing and the licking is a sign of respect and
relaxation of the herbivore horse. This theory is one of pillars of
Roberts' allegedly non-violent Join-up method.
How do equine ethologists and behavioural scientists interpret the
chewing and licking? Does it always signal relaxation? How gentle is
Join up really?
CAVALLO asked leading experts from all over the world. Here are some
excerpts of their answers:

Dr. Barbara Schöning, Specialist in Animal Behaviour from Hamburg,
Germany.

From a very early stage the foal shows chewing and licking, the head
can be lowered at the same time and the legs bend - similar to the
suckling at the udder. Later this eating behaviour becomes a social
behaviour that signals submission and appeasement during conflicts.
Behaviourists believe that the empty chewing (bruxism) not only
restrains the adversary's aggression but also calms and relaxes the
chewing one, in the sense of a so called displacement activity.
If a horse shows this kind of behaviour, there is a reason for it: it
feels threatened, which means it is stressed and therefore shows a
behaviour that in its opinion is adequate in order to avert the
threat. As it is impossible to flee in a round pen it is left with
the options to attack, to surrender or to appease.
That is where drama comes into play: situations like those that Monty
Roberts creates are for most horses incomprehensible. Why (from the
horse's point of view) does an unknown person put on massive pressure
in a situation where nothing important, in the understanding of the
horse, is at stake?
Generally this means double stress which in my opinion brings it to
the limits as regards animal welfare. I don't think humans should
only be very gentle. Pressure is necessary
every now and then during the training - but it has to be reasonable,
graded and above all comprehensible for the horse. Then it won't
suffer stress as it learns how it can resolve a certain problem.
Monty Roberts is neither gentle nor non-violent in the round pen –
unless gentle and non-violent is defined as "the absence of direct
corporal punishment/manipulation".
To me psychological violence is also relevant.



Dr. Sue McDonnell holds a PhD in psychology and physiology and is
Head of the Equine Behaviour Lab at the University of Pennsylvania.
She is one of the leading experts for Equine Behaviour in the USA.

Most behaviourists have concerns regards the naturalness of these
natural horsemanship methods. Many horse owners who have been exposed
to these methods contact our Institute subsequently for help. This
indicates that they often encounter complications or even failure.
Join up is a weird and ever growing changing combination of
procedures that has very few if any practical applications beyond
the "show".
Same results can be achieved in much simpler ways, though not as
entertaining perhaps.
Now in the US it seems that Monty is going out, I haven't heard much
lately about Shy Boy or any of his materials. The methods people have
learned in join up type clinics can be fairly rough and border on
inhumane and can cause psychological wrecks long-term.



Dr. Francis Burton, Brain Researcher and Behaviourist at the
Institute of Biomedical & Life Sciences of the Scottish University of
Glasgow.

I think the horse is already stressed by the time he is "licking and
chewing". This action is caused by a previous adrenaline release. The
simple physiological explanation goes: being made to flee - increase
in circulating adrenaline - dry mouth - licking. This means a horse
may lick and chew following a fright, in which situation it surely
cannot mean "I'm a herbivore, and if I'm eating I can't be afraid of
you" – the interpretation given by Monty Roberts in join up. I've
tried "join up" with three horses with whom I already had a trusting
relationship. One joined up "classically" and followed me around
meekly.
The other two displayed signs of being irritated by the procedure,
one showed increased aggressiveness towards me. I was left wondering
frankly what the point of the exercise was and realized that the
driving away had a detrimental effect on the trust that I already had
built up. > It is not a technique that I would consider using myself,
or recommending to other people.


Lesley Skipper, Equestrian author from the USA. Author of the
book "Inside your horse's mind - A Study of Equine Intelligence and
Human Prejudice".
She owns eight Arabs, Hanoverian and Draught horses.

I have often observed chewing and licking in horses who are anxious
about something as evinced by their body language. In some cases it
may simply indicate that they are thirsty. This illustrates the need
for caution when attributing specific meanings to particular gestures
or facial expressions as these can vary according to context. To be
fair, Monty Robert's pupil Kelly Marks does inform people that
licking and chewing can signify anxiety, and she also warns that join
up is not suitable for every horse.
The problem I have with many so-called natural horsemanship methods
is that it seems to be based on some very limited observations of
free-ranging horses and much of it pertains to stallions rather than
mares. The result is that the training methods adopted are based on
very simplistic assumptions, which are not necessarily correct.



Mary Ann Simonds, Wildlife and Range Ecologist, Equine Behaviourist
and Therapist. In 1987 she wrote the Guidelines for Managing Wild
Horse Stress for the American Bureau of Land Management (BML) and she
is the founder of the Whole Horse Institute in Vancouver/Washington.

In working with many wild horses, I have observed that at first their
lips are tight and they are fearful. As they start to let go off
their stress, they often will lick and chew - this is however more a
sign of relief than of relaxation. But horses will lick and chew,
too, when they are in a high state of stress with eyes rolling back,
sweating, pawing. But in this situation it demonstrates, I believe,
just a way for the horse to release some of the built up stress.

I have known Monty Roberts for almost 30 years. Many of the "join up"
techniques are not natural to a horse and in fact cause trauma. The
video made by Monty Roberts with a wild horse given to him by the BLM
was one of the most stressed encounters I have seen. The wild horse
demonstrated every level of "high stress indicator". Good horse
ethologists or trainers take into account the horse's temperament and
level of stress and then design the most appropriate method to help
the horse learn with the least amount of stress and fear. Patience,
kindness and being able to think like a horse, are the best traits a
human educator can have to educate a horse. Join up once started out
as a better way to "break" horses, and has just turned into just
another way to control horses using techniques they do not all
understand.



Dr. Dirk Lebelt, Specialist for Animal Behaviour at the Horse Clinic
Havelland in Brielow/Brandenburg, Germany

I have some doubts regards the claimed naturalness of round pen
training. Even though the control of the movement of a lower status
horse by a high status horse is a characteristic of specific equine
behaviour. But while under natural conditions the lower status horse
is able to evade the aggressions of the higher status animal and may
signal its submissiveness, an evasion is impossible within the round
pen. In my opinion this explains partly the quick success that often
can be observed during round pen training. The horse feels it is at
the mercy of the trainer, which is also called "learned
helplessness". This leads to quick submission.
How far such a procedure, which surely doesn't correspond with the
specific equine behavioural repertoire, is non-violent or not,
depends definitely on the empathy and the experience of the trainer.



Andy Beck from the "White Horse Farm Equine Ethology Project" in
Northland/New Zealand studies equine behaviour and training methods
on Thoroughbreds and Arabs.

The drive away in which the horse is put into 'flight' is potentially
very frightening. The use of a mask increases the element of panic
and the potential for "learned helplessness". While this may create
an appearance of "control" it has also been shown to impede future
learning. There is also the risk of producing abreaction in response
to repressed emotion (fear, isolation). Horses that have already been
well socialised to people become extremely confused by being driven
away. The horse has no idea why it is harried and is most likely to
experience the method as unpredictable aggression - the last thing a
good trainer wants a horse to experience.
One of the most basic tenets of good horse management is that the
handler is able to control their behaviour so that they do not
trigger the response of blind flight as a predator would do.




Professor Katherine Houpt, Behavioural Psychologist and Physiologist
at the College of Veterinary Behaviourists, Cornell University,
Ithaca, NY, USA

I have seen Roberts use the Dually as punishment - jerking on the
nose rope and forcing the horse to back up. He doesn't call it
punishment, but it is. His method is not suitable for every horse.
Very aggressive horses will charge. And it is not suitable for every
horse owner, as some simply exhaust the horse. To drive the horse
away is just a form of negative
reinforcement - doing something unpleasant until the horse does what
you want. That is
not too different from kicking the horse until he trots. I don't
think this method has anything to do with herd behaviour and I don't
know how often horses are permanently cured of their problem if
Roberts isn't there. Round Pen training is not miraculous.



Dr. Natalie Waran, Expert for Equine Behaviour at the Royal School of
Veterinary Sciences of the Scottish University of Edinburgh

In the UK we are rather getting tired of the join up method
especially as this method is not new at all, but the Gyro (a round
pen) was used for training horses in Roman times. If the horse is
placed in isolation and in an unfamiliar environment and powerful
psychological techniques such as those in the join up system are
applied, you have to question the effect
that has on the animal: The handler becomes an unpredictable dictator
and the horse learns to become helpless, activity is reduced and the
horse shows licking and chewing - all signs of stress.



Dr. Sharon Cregier, Equine Ethologist, former Lecturer at the
Canadian University of Prince Edward Island. She has published many
books and articles on equine behaviour and animal welfare.

I have never liked the "predator - prey" application to horse
training. The horse is a social animal, seeking security and
reassurance with trusted herd mates. An ill horse is driven from the
herd and it is forced to try to survive on the edge of the herd where
it is prey. Therefore it must be confusing to a horse to be
continually driven from its source of security but unable to flee.
The round pen, notes veterinarian Robert Miller of Thousand Oaks,
California, inhibits the horse's natural flight response. The free
horse flees a predator in a straight line.
Regards the "chewing and licking" it has not been clear to me whether
Monty Roberts is referring to the grooved "suckling" tongue or the
nervous attack on, for example, hay in a trailer when a horse is
under stress.



Dr. Willa Bohnet, Biologist and Expert for Equine Behaviour at the
Center for Animal Welfare, School of Veterinary Medicine Hannover;
Germany

To do a join up with an aggressive horse in a closed round pen is
highly dangerous. The method on its own is not suitable for the
behavioural therapy of a problem horse. For such a therapy it is
necessary to combine, depending on the diagnosis, various methods
(for example conditioning, systematic desensitization and anti-
conditioning in cases of fear and phobias). Under certain
circumstances Join up may be suitable to establish the relationship
as regards dominance between the trainer and the horse as a basis for
further training. Horses that are generally ready to accept the human
being of higher status and to work with him, would be completely
confused if they were chased away by the trainer without knowing how
they had triggered this behaviour. I once attended a Join up
demonstration by a book writing trainer during which he wondered why
the mare he was working with would only follow him a few steps. What
did the good man do wrong? Every few steps he looked over his
shoulder to control if the mare was following him. Every time the
mare turned around and ran away. Why? In the horse's language looking
over the shoulder right at someone is a threatening gesture, to which
the mare responded correctly. If Monty Roberts really refers to
predatorial behaviour he wouldn't have understood the background of his own
method. A threat by an attacker causes fear and the flight response. If the horse unable
to flee, panic arises. The best learning result, what a good educator
aims at, is achieved in a relaxed atmosphere. If Join up is practised
gently and not in a way that the horse stops running at some stage
being sweaty all over and completely exhausted, then it can be used
for some horses and in certain therapeutic approaches. But for heaven's sake it is not a method suitable for everybody. Due to Monty Roberts public demonstrations
people get the impression that you only need to chase around your
horse properly and it'll be as meek as a little lamb after max 30
minutes and all problems will be resolved. Fallacy!



Dr. Evelyn Hanggi, Equine Behaviourist and President of the Equine
Research Foundation in Aptos, California.

Round pen training and Monty Roberts are not one and the same. Proper
use of a round pen by a good trainer is not nearly as stressful as
what you see with Roberts. He uses halters that create pain. He uses
a buckstopper and right there he loses any credibility of non-
violence. Horses do not learn well when they are fearful or in pain.



Dr. Marthe Kiley-Worthington from the Eco Research & Education Centre
in Devon, UK, is the Grande dame of Animal Behaviour Research and she
founded in 1959 the Research Stud Druimghiga.

It is awful that Monty Roberts refers to the behaviour of a predator.
I have seen some shocking results of this. It is madness to frighten
a frightened horse. This daft idea of "dominance" comes from the male
competitive cultural society in which we all live. The fact of the
matter is that the equine societies do not need to be based on
dominance or competition, their food etc is either available for
every one or no one, only at sexual times there is need for
competition between males, and even that rarely occurs in the wild,
as the mares rather like their own stallion and are not prepared to
put up with intruders.
Dear old Monty does not seem to understand learning theory if he
rejects totally feeding as a reward. There needs to be some positive
reinforcer to make the horse learn. If Roberts only works with
negative reinforcement - that means stopping to chase the horse
around as a reward, this does not work as well as behaviourists know
already for quite some time.



Andrew McLean, founder of the biggest Centre for Equine Behaviour in
Australia, and member of the International Society of Applied
Ethology. He trains problem horses, rides Dressage and Military and
is completing a PhD thesis on the mental processes of the horse and
its consequences for training.

It has been clearly demonstrated by researchers that unlike other
behaviours, fear responses are not subject to extinction. Any fear
responses that are provoked by humans (like e.g. chasing it around a
round pen, the editor) will indelibly etch on the horse's memory -
the horse associates fear responses with the perception of humans.
The trouble is, these associations are not always evident
immediately, they come back to "haunt" the relationship at a later
point when stress levels are raised. All sorts of chasing horses
should therefore be questioned.
In our early training and in the rehab of horses at our centre, we
avoid all forms of chasing such as driving or lunging especially when
the horse is fearful.

annemariev schreef:

Zo zie je maar weer dat er veel verschillende inzichten zijn. En dat is belangrijk bij alles wat je doet. Helaas zijn er weinig dingen zwart/wit. Maar dat maakt het aan de andere kant ook weer heel interessant.

Er wordt op dit moment verder onderzoek gedaan op de universiteit van Zurich, nadat in Zurich en Parma aangetoond is dat Monty's manier van werken zeer goede resultaten had en efectief minder streshormonen bij de paarden produceerde dan bij meer traditionele methoden. Zij zijn ervan overtuigd dat Monty's manier van werken erg goed is, en hij heeft daar dan ook een honoured doctership in animal behaviour, alsmede in Parma.

En kom nou niet direct allemaal over me heen met allerlei argumenten, want ik vind het prima dat jullie een andere mening hebben. Blijf alleen altijd zelf denken, en ga niet mee in de grote massa. En wat de pers betreft, daar kun je boeken over schrijven. Overal over de wereld wordt geschreven dat de paarden voor de demo's getraind zjin bijvoorbeeld. Of dat we ze meenemen, van plek naar plek. Hoe zouden we dat verborgen kunnen houden? En hoe zou ik dat moeten doen als ik mensen bij hun huis help? s'nachts al komen om te trainen?

Belangrijk om te weten is dat Join Up in heel veel gevallen een goed middel is, maar in heel veel gevallen ook niet. Dus wat dat betreft ben ik het helemaal met de schrijver eens. Een aggressief paard hoor je niet los te gooien, want je brengt jezelf in gevaar. Het is ook geen wondermiddel dat je paard helpt van het bokken af te komen. Maar het is heel vaak een heel goede start.

En om nog iets anders onder de aandacht te brengen, de verschillende meningen van experts over likken en kauwen. er zijn onderzoeken gedaan waaruit is gebleken dat likken en kauwen juist komt als het paard ontspant. Niet als het gestressed is. Of als het enigzins onzeker is. Toevallig gistren naar de voordracht geweest van Eric van Breda, erg leuk. Wat naast zijn betoog interssant was is dat hij evrtelde dat verschillende onderzoeken vershillende uitkomsten kunnen hebben. Dat maakt het inderdaad niet makkelijker. maar dan kom ik precies terug bij waar ik begon. Dat maakt het nou juist ook zo interessant.

Blanket schreef:

Had dit onder werp nooit zolang en zo afkrakend te hoeven zijn als we iedereen gewoon in hun waarde laten, en hadden de meeste gewoon kunnen reageren met 2 of 3 woorden MEE EENS of NIET MEE EENS.

Had toch veel simpeler geweest en voor sommige de nodige irritatie gevoelens gespaart gebleven.

sabino schreef:

Wil ook nog even iets zeggen over dat 'rukken' aan het hoofd.
Ik zie het als corrigeren(maar dat is mijn opinie)en als je goed kijkt beloont hij het paard daarna ook iedere keer waarbij het paard niet kopschuw wordt.Geef je hem een klap met je hand of zweep of wat dan ook hoef je daarna niet te proberen zijn hoofd te aaien.
Daarbij moet je echt wel consequent optreden bij een jonge hengst die altijd gewend is de baas te zijn en dat zal ook echt niet na een sessie opgelost zijn.

Whisper_X schreef:

sabino schreef:

Wil ook nog even iets zeggen over dat 'rukken' aan het hoofd.
Ik zie het als corrigeren(maar dat is mijn opinie)en als je goed kijkt beloont hij het paard daarna ook iedere keer waarbij het paard niet kopschuw wordt.Geef je hem een klap met je hand of zweep of wat dan ook hoef je daarna niet te proberen zijn hoofd te aaien.
Daarbij moet je echt wel consequent optreden bij een jonge hengst die altijd gewend is de baas te zijn en dat zal ook echt niet na een sessie opgelost zijn.

ben ik het gloeiend mee eens

sabino schreef:

Wil ook nog even iets zeggen over dat 'rukken' aan het hoofd.
Ik zie het als corrigeren(maar dat is mijn opinie)en als je goed kijkt beloont hij het paard daarna ook iedere keer waarbij het paard niet kopschuw wordt.Geef je hem een klap met je hand of zweep of wat dan ook hoef je daarna niet te proberen zijn hoofd te aaien.
Daarbij moet je echt wel consequent optreden bij een jonge hengst die altijd gewend is de baas te zijn en dat zal ook echt niet na een sessie opgelost zijn.

luxket schreef:

Dan geef je een tik op het moment dat je het ziet en ben je dus al te laat.. paard heeft maar 1 sec reactie tijd of minder.. met de buckstopper komt het precies op het moment aan dat hij het zelf doet.. het paard kiest zelf om te bokken en wordt dus ook door zichzelf gestrafd... Dit op precies het juiste moment..

Maar da's mijn mening