.Ik mag dat wel
! Zie er toch wel de humor van in, gelukkig 
. Zelf kan ik n.l. ook nogal pittbullerig zijn 
. Springende Volbloeden
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- Himyar
-
- Berichten: 4539
- Geregistreerd: 14-08-01
Geplaatst door de TopicStarter : 26-11-03 11:07
Somebody on a Dutch forum is saying that the race horse skeleton of the Thoroughbred has really messed up the dressage horse and show jumper. She tells everybody over and over again that TB’s don’t have a lumbar or loin mechanism (to really collect) and that racing is a totally different selection criterium in breeding. The racehorse skeleton is NOT what a riding horse needs, it would be better to use Shagya Arabians. Look at Ramzes she says, he was partly Shagya.
Do you agree with this?
I am asking this here because many people in Holland hardly know what Thoroughbred means because there are so few TB's in this country. We hardly have any racing at all and the well bred TB's are often too expensive for the Dutch market.
I used to own a TB mare, I bred three Quarter horse foals out of her but hardly anyone wants a horse with TB on the registration paper, whatever breed it may be. I sold the mare to an Englishman and he sent her to France, to Sagamix. Now her first TB foal will be sold at Tattersalls (tomorrow) and she carries a foal from Elmaamul (Diesis). The mare could easily have ended up in a slaughterhouse here in Holland. It's not a good place for them to be. And then I hear a lot of people here talk about the Buckpasser blood and I think why was her sire Man In The Moon so totally wasted on Dutch ground? He is a son of Buckpasser out of a Nearctic mare. But he was hardly given any chances at all. Is it the TB's or is it the Dutch??
I'll probably get flamed, but I have wondered for a long time why folks are so eager to cross TB into WBs. So many are downhill or pass it on as they carry the genes, they are sometimes hot, they can have light bone and can have poor feet. Granted there are some very nice ones but I can look at a CANTER page and see one or two out of 20-30 that look like good dressage prospects. I would rather cross a breed like morgan, saddlebred, even some ponies like connemara and welsh in as well as arabs. You are breeding to an outcross generally known more for soundness and uphill build at least. Just my opinion...
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No doubt, this is the dutch way of looking at Thoroughbreds, not the TB itself.
Same Problem in Belgium and Germany. (I'm German and living in Belgium.)
There is no market for Quarter x TB-Foals. Most Western Riders here strongly deny any good influence that a TB can have on a Quarter (or Paint oder whatever). May be there will be a change of thought in the Hunter under Saddle-Division during the next years, but I doubt it.
On the other hand - the impact of TBs on German Warmblood Breeds is rather great. Many riders love the spirit, the ability and the movement of their 25%TB-, 50%TB- or more-%TB-Warmbloods very much. And how right they are!
I would dismiss the nonsense this lady writes at once from my memory. Stupidity and shere arrogance, if you ask me.
But breeding Western horses to TBs - oh no no no, you don't do that in Europe. Why not?? I don't understand this, I know several very good and athletic Appendix-Quarters and -Paints competing in eventing.
Daydream Believer,
In Europe, You don't cross the next TB to a Warmblood. At least not if You are interested to get any money for the foal.
A TB stallion needs a GAG of at least 88 kilograms, before he is even considered to be worth a second look. So he has had to prove himself on the racetrack. Then he is inspected very closely by a commission. He has to have good bones and a superior conformation. Only then he gets permission to be used as a stud. TB mares have to be registered too and pass the eye of a commission.
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I just have to give my 2 cents. I love the TB crosses and have a TB x QH cross as my event horse. He is very athletic, sound and sane. And while I might agree that crossing to TB for dressage might be less than desirable, there are plenty of reason to cross to TB's for improving QH and WB's to create great athletes for other events.
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I certainly don't buy the "slam" on the Thoroughbred. Too bad they can't see our TB PSG mare in action .... collection? uphill? You bet!! Everyone has a right to their opinion, but come on already. If we started a list of successful TB jumpers & dressage horses, we'd be here all day! Another point to maybe bring out - since the QH has found such popularity in Europe now, how about the TB connection there? Most of them have some TB blood in their veins.... the Leo line, Wimpy, Plaudit, Joe Reed, Skipper W, Joe Hancock & the famous Three Bars - a TB stallion. In my youth I had a little QH/TB who could jump a 5' course in excellent form. Just sticking up for the Thoroughbred influence!
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Too funny to find this here. I've been lurking on that forum as well, but have not added my comments, maybe it is time to add my North American perspective to that forum.
I think the Dutch don't have access to enough good TBs to seriously consider them as part of the marebase. They do bring TBs all the time as sires...Stravinsky..sit this one out...Roven (and in the past Courville etc). I know some of those guys carry similar bloodlines to many of the mares we use on this side of the pond.
I think they are typically conformationally much better suited for jumping...and they are a great fit her for the breeding of the showhunters and eventers. They are usually not built for dressage, but that doesn't mean there aren't exeptions.
I've just purchased a TB mare for breeding to Warmblood stallions...but I will be breeding for hunters and jumpers...she is by no means a dressage horse.
I was just at a recent keuring and we had several TB mares go premium. The judge (from Hanoverian Verband) was very impressed with the quality.
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There are basically 2 types of TB in this country. The old distance bred horses and the newer sprinter bred horses. I have never, ever been able to understand why anyone would want to ruin the good TBs by turning them into sprinters. If you want a sprinter, why not go into Quarter Horse racing???? All of my mares are the old distance bloodlines and NO WAY are they built downhill. They are also very graceful movers and have wonderful canters. The problem in this country is not the TB used for the cross so much as the inexperienced breeders who don't know what to look for in a TB mare as a sporthorse broodmare prospect except cheap from the track. There are plenty of good TB mares in this country who produce wonderful sporthorses. You just have to look at the conformation and type before you buy. Many of the bloodlines are the same for the old lines here and in Europe, but in Europe they don't do the shorter races and have kept and value the old distance bloodlines. You CAN still find them in this country, and it's not that hard.
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I'd be so very interested in the scientific (heck, even ancedotal) real evidence to support the lady's claim
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Economics is why there are so many sprint type racehorses now. Everyone wants to race at 2 - the races are sprints - if they don't win at 2 they are on their way out...
Anyway - I like arabians too and certainly agree Ramzes was a very nice stallion. But the truth is - the American QUarter horse is not a very old breed at all and almost all the foundation stallion blood is
ta da
Thouroughbred.
Almost all the Thoroughbred foundation blood is
ta da
Arabian.
And the shorter Arabian back is not necessarily influential for suppling the lumbar area.
FWIW - JMO:
For me, a lot of Dutch horses are too heavy (but see other thread re: old style and how many people do love them too). For the Dutch that I have seen - I don't think a tb would often be a great cross bc there is too much dissimilarity in type. I think to lighten them an Arabian *might* be a better choice - even though also dissimilar, the Arabian has such strong breed characteristics you might get the hoped for results more consistently.
What an t might give you that an Arabian might not (and it all depends on what you want -doesn't it?) - Legginess, WITHERS (the bane of my saddle fitting and riding existence would be to take a no wither WB and cross with a no wither Arabian), a better canter (but not some of the sprint types to be honest), LENGTH - of body and neck, BAD feet, better shoulder and pastern angle, good heartgirth, less roundness in the barrel - which is easier for a lot of women or shorter legged individuals to ride, good stamina, very good ability to handle heat and humidity (which is very needed for some areas here in the states. Both tb and Arabian I think give you sensitivity, heart, guts and try.
An Arabian might more consistently put on a better neckset, a prettier head, smarts (more consistently I am saying - of course I have met dumb Arabs but not an abundance), a shorter frame, denser bone, short cannons.
It all depends on what you want. Here - sprint type tbs are often used with Quarter HOrses for barrel horses and other uses. Actually - the way that appendix papers worked with Quarter Horses was that, if the Appendix horse earned enough points in the necessary areas, the Appendix papers were replaced with full Quarter Horse papers. So in one generation a horse could go from being "appendix" to having full AQHA breeding papers and be bred back to an approved tb. Not uncommon to find, in my area which is a QH mecca, lots and lots of TB in the quarter horses. I don't know if that is still how the Appendix Papers work. Also - around here - there are a lot of paints and a lot of paint "snobbery" in that they brag about ONLY QH **AND TB** in the lines. They are very offended if you call a wbXa Paint instead of a Pinto.
Different strokes.
Just a clarification -- a Shagya is not the same as a purebred Arabian.
From the North American Shagya Society website (www.shagya.net):
Shagyas are typically 15 to 16 hands in height, with a minimum of 7 inches of bone at the cannon. Grey is the most common color, although there are also bay, chestnut and black Shagyas. Limbs are well-formed and dry.
History of the Shagya-Arabian
The Shagya-Arabian Horse was developed in the Austro-Hungarian Empire over 200 years ago. The breed originated from the need for a horse with the endurance, intelligence and character of an Arabian but with larger size and carrying capacity required by the Imperial Hussars. Over time, Shagyas were utilized both as carriage and light riding horses. The registry of the breed is the oldest next to the registry of the English Hunt Club.
The Shagya breed was originally developed at the the Imperial Stud at Babolna, Hungary. Failed experiments with Spanish and Thoroughbred blood eventually led the breeders at Babolna to a cross of native Hungarian mares with stallions of pure Desert Arabian blood. Shagya bloodlines were also developed at the stud farms at Radautz (Hungary), Topolcianky (Czechoslovakia), Mangalia (Rumania), and Kabijuk (Bulgaria).
The breed takes its name from the dapple-grey stallion Shagya, born in 1810. The Bani Saher tribe of Bedouins, who lived in what is now Syria, bred Shagya and sold him to agents of the Habsburg monarchy. In 1836, he became the breeding stallion at Babolna. Shagya was prepotent and appears in almost all Shagya pedigrees.
One of the purposes of the Shagya breed has always been as improvers of other breeds. Shagya stallions appear in the bloodlines of many warmblood breeds. The Shagya mare "Jordi" is the dam of the great warmblood stallion "Ramzes." "Ramzes" descendant "Rembrandt" won the 1988 Olympic Gold Medal for dressage.
Purebred Shagyas have up to 12 purebred Arabian ancestors out of 16 ancestors in the 4th generation. Purebred Shagyas from the foal year of 1993 and after may have no more than 10 out of 16 purebred Arabian ancestors in the fourth generation.
I agree completely with the sprinter TBs, although I don't agree with it. I still say go Quarter Horse and stop ruining the TB. However economics and the great god money rules and faster, sooner is better. That's especially why so many of those horses are for sale off the track. They couldn't make it - but guess what! They do not have the conformation, type or movement to make it as sporthorse broodmares. The sprinters are built downhill, with the neck coming up out of the chest instead of rising up out of the withers. They have light front ends and big quarters. The old distance TBs are built like lighter boned Trakehners. In fact, I always used to think that Trakehners looked like bigger boned TBs - until the race people started breeding for sprinters. You CAN still find good TB mares here. I have some.
How funny. You should post this on the hunter forum and see how many people are interested in a warmblood/ Arabian cross.
They may make wonderful dressage horses, but hunters, they will just not be.
The TB/Warmbloood crosses seem to be the breed of choice for the hunter ring today. They are typey looking, but with more bone, quiet, but athletic...
I agree that only the best should be bred to the best. Of course, that is a given.
There are gorgeous, well conformed TB's as well as Arabs. Then there are clunkers, rejects and psycho's. I don't think it's fair to look at the Canter website where those horses are being "placed" and get a good feel for the cream of the crop. They have some nice horses, but some not so nice.
Why don't you fly down to Gulfstream in Miami and take a look around?I doubt you'll find a clunker in the whole place. That's TB breeding at it's best. Why breed anything less?
I also love the distance bred tbs and it makes me sad to see so much emphasis on sprint types. The thing is - I can usually find at least a couple horses on any CANTER site that I think are not too bad at all. Particularly given that they are usually poorly (for sport horses) shod. I can go through a lot of "cheap horse" sites for morgans, drafts, qh, WBX etc. and find just as many that I don't like as on a CANTER site usually. BUt I think this thread does show in part - one man's trash...
I do think they have done some bone studies both in Sweden and through Dr. Clayton here on bone if that is the main concern. I think there are some "too light" parameters for certain sizes, but it is fairly rare for there to be lightness to the point of skeletal dysfunction and breakdown I believe. In particular, I remember some inspectors a few years back discussing some studies and they told me that the days of thinking everything HAD TO HAVE a 9" plus cannon were over.
You do get into some body mass extremes where you have to be concerned. But those true extremes where structural integrity is threatened are pretty far between. Things like DJD, which warmbloods can bring to the table just as easily as anything you cross them with, are more of a concern there and with tbs and broken legs, etc. the culprit is usually the support structures - ligaments, etc. thatare not able to handle the stress more so than the bone being too light per se.
The hunter market here does seem to have a big niche for tb/wb crosses. For me, even though dressage is my first love, my favorite "type" will always be a nicely put together straight tb. And my current favorite horse in the barn --- grade. LOL Definitely all or mostly all Arabian though. Most VALUABLE horses in the barn - WBs. It all depends on what you want. There's a reason there are so many different sizes and shapes.
- Anna42
- Berichten: 2001
- Geregistreerd: 10-05-03
Geplaatst: 26-11-03 21:16
Pascha schreef:Jammer dat ik die race niet gezien heb!!! Zal er wel leuk uit hebben gezien!!
En inderdaad, dat gezeur over de ideale bouw, Tineke Bartels zegt juist (maar ja, dat gaat over dressuur) dat geen enkel paard perfect is, en dat dat nou zo leuk is. Vooral als het een heel goed sportpaard is.
Daarom moeten we juist voorkomen dat via de racepaarden nog meer afwijkingen in de sportpaardenfokkerij krijgen.
- fokfanaat
-
- Berichten: 20589
- Geregistreerd: 21-10-02
- Woonplaats: Uut Uune
Geplaatst: 26-11-03 23:28
Anna42"]
[quote="Pascha schreef:Jammer dat ik die race niet gezien heb!!! Zal er wel leuk uit hebben gezien!!
En inderdaad, dat gezeur over de ideale bouw, Tineke Bartels zegt juist (maar ja, dat gaat over dressuur) dat geen enkel paard perfect is, en dat dat nou zo leuk is. Vooral als het een heel goed sportpaard is.
Daarom moeten we juist voorkomen dat via de racepaarden nog meer afwijkingen in de sportpaardenfokkerij krijgen.
[/quote]
Uit dat oogpunt lijken me hengsten met een grote portie (>25%) SHa ook niet gewenst!
- Anna42
- Berichten: 2001
- Geregistreerd: 10-05-03
Geplaatst: 27-11-03 01:20
Samsam"]
[quote="Anna42"][quote="Pascha schreef:Jammer dat ik die race niet gezien heb!!! Zal er wel leuk uit hebben gezien!!
En inderdaad, dat gezeur over de ideale bouw, Tineke Bartels zegt juist (maar ja, dat gaat over dressuur) dat geen enkel paard perfect is, en dat dat nou zo leuk is. Vooral als het een heel goed sportpaard is.
Daarom moeten we juist voorkomen dat via de racepaarden nog meer afwijkingen in de sportpaardenfokkerij krijgen.
[/quote]
Uit dat oogpunt lijken me hengsten met een grote portie (>25%) SHa ook niet gewenst!
[/quote]
Hoe kom je aan die 25%? Wat dat heb je zo maar niet? Ergens moet dat
vandaan komen? Waar vandaan? Hoe moet je het inzetten?
- fokfanaat
-
- Berichten: 20589
- Geregistreerd: 21-10-02
- Woonplaats: Uut Uune
Geplaatst: 27-11-03 12:34
Anna42 schreef:
Hoe kom je aan die 25%? Wat dat heb je zo maar niet? Ergens moet dat
vandaan komen? Waar vandaan? Hoe moet je het inzetten?
kijk bij toppaarden die 3 % sha bezitten schrijf jij alle goede eigenschappen toe aan zijn sha voorouders. (onterecht mi) En die bedoel ik dus niet ik heb het over hengsten met een werkelijk groot aandeel Sha, meer dan 25 % bijvoorbeeld!
- Sonja_vR
-
- Berichten: 27462
- Geregistreerd: 12-07-02
- Woonplaats: Dusschen
Geplaatst: 27-11-03 12:42
ceasario schreef:Klopt.
Maar men is op dit moment bezig een ander soort springpaard te creeren
bij bepaalde stamboeken en dan is de vraag past daar de volbloed van vandaag nog in. En dat moet je aan de Jury van de hengstencom. vragen
want die geven het aan door ze aan te wijzen.
Nogmaals er zijn twee soorten springpaarden plus de rest.
En daar dient men naar dat onderscheidt te kijken.
Wil je bij aankoop het ene of het andere soort.
ja maar is die hengstencommisie heilig dan ?
ik denk dat de fokker er ook heel goed over na moet denken wat die wil,
hengstencomissies maken helaas ook fouten en hebben ook niet de wijsheid in pacht
- ceasario
-
- Berichten: 12330
- Geregistreerd: 26-10-03
Geplaatst: 27-11-03 12:51
draumpje"]
[quote="ceasario schreef:Klopt.
Maar men is op dit moment bezig een ander soort springpaard te creeren
bij bepaalde stamboeken en dan is de vraag past daar de volbloed van vandaag nog in. En dat moet je aan de Jury van de hengstencom. vragen
want die geven het aan door ze aan te wijzen.
Nogmaals er zijn twee soorten springpaarden plus de rest.
En daar dient men naar dat onderscheidt te kijken.
Wil je bij aankoop het ene of het andere soort.
ja maar is die hengstencommisie heilig dan ?
ik denk dat de fokker er ook heel goed over na moet denken wat die wil,
hengstencomissies maken helaas ook fouten en hebben ook niet de wijsheid in pacht
[/quote]
In mijn ogen maak je een kleine denkfout.
Nl. de hengstencommissie is inderdaad heilig.
Jij gaat er van uit dat een KWPNpaard in je ogen voldoen moet aan een bepaald beeld.
En dat is niet waar.
Het KWPN is een "vereniging" die een bepaald type paard voor staan.
In dit geval "De Parabool". en dat is een eigen merk en dien je te respecteren. Zo ook dressuurpaarden die over het voorbeen gaan.
Ook dit is een merk van bepaalde stamboeken.
En wanneer je een ander soort paard wilt moet je even bij verschillende stamboeken rondshoppen.
Doe je ook op een Autoboulevard. Simpel.
- petraaken
-
- Berichten: 44512
- Geregistreerd: 17-07-03
- Woonplaats: Zedelgem (België) provincie West-Vlaanderen
- Himyar
-
- Berichten: 4539
- Geregistreerd: 14-08-01
Geplaatst door de TopicStarter : 27-11-03 16:40
ceasario"]
[quote="CielitoLindo schreef:Pfff das een lang stuk
Wat is het adres van dit waarschijnlijk forum?
[/quote]
http://chronicleforums.com/6/ubb.x?=frm ... 3206053911
- Bucephalus
-
- Berichten: 2480
- Geregistreerd: 28-05-03
Geplaatst: 27-11-03 18:16
- Himyar
-
- Berichten: 4539
- Geregistreerd: 14-08-01
Geplaatst door de TopicStarter : 28-11-03 17:33
http://chronicleforums.com/6/ubb.x?q=Y& ... 604211&p=2
Gaat ze die Amerikanen ook helemaal gek zitten maken misschien??
- Bucephalus
-
- Berichten: 2480
- Geregistreerd: 28-05-03
Geplaatst: 28-11-03 17:38
Himyar schreef:Onee, is Anna hier nu ook al actief als Bachus ?? :
http://chronicleforums.com/6/ubb.x?q=Y& ... 604211&p=2
Gaat ze die Amerikanen ook helemaal gek zitten maken misschien??
Hartelijk dank voor je tip. 'T zou best eens kunnen. Even kijken hoe zich de discussie ontpopt.
- ceasario
-
- Berichten: 12330
- Geregistreerd: 26-10-03
Geplaatst: 28-11-03 18:32
Bucephalus"]
[quote="Himyar schreef:Onee, is Anna hier nu ook al actief als Bachus ?? :
http://chronicleforums.com/6/ubb.x?q=Y& ... 604211&p=2
Gaat ze die Amerikanen ook helemaal gek zitten maken misschien??
Hartelijk dank voor je tip. 'T zou best eens kunnen. Even kijken hoe zich de discussie ontpopt.
[/quote]
Het wordt er niet eenvoudiger op gemaakt voor de bokkers.
- Anna42
- Berichten: 2001
- Geregistreerd: 10-05-03
Geplaatst: 28-11-03 21:33
Himyar schreef:Onee, is Anna hier nu ook al actief als Bachus ?? :
http://chronicleforums.com/6/ubb.x?q=Y& ... 604211&p=2
Gaat ze die Amerikanen ook helemaal gek zitten maken misschien??
Er blijken gelukkig meer mensen (ook buiten dit land) te zijn die nadenken of de fokkerij.
Waar komt het vandaan en hoe kun de elementen behouden en versterken die essentieel voor een sportpaard zijn.
