Bokt.nl

Ere wie ere toe komt,mireille.Waar ik soms knarsetandend achter de pc zat,bleef jij heel kalm alles uitleggen,ook al had je het al 30 x verteld.
Ik moet heel eerlijk zeggen dat het stukje humor wat er bij is gekomen,ook heel prettig is!! Clown

**Geplaatst**: 28-06-06 09:57

Re: DVD met discussie over LDR uitgebracht door Ulhrike Tiel

Geplaatst: 28-06-06 09:57

Hier komt nog een mod even heel snel Tyrza feliciteren. Goed joh!
*duikt nu weer in meeleeshoekje*

**Geplaatst**: 28-06-06 12:24

Re: DVD met discussie over LDR uitgebracht door Ulhrike Tiel

Geplaatst: 28-06-06 12:24

kees2 schreef:
Ere wie ere toe komt,mireille.Waar ik soms knarsetandend achter de pc zat,bleef jij heel kalm alles uitleggen,ook al had je het al 30 x verteld.
Ik moet heel eerlijk zeggen dat het stukje humor wat er bij is gekomen,ook heel prettig is!!

Ja, dat vind ik ook. Alle lof daarvoor en voor alle anderen (gelukkig waren er meer Clown

) die in staat waren om inhoudelijk te blijven.

Alsof we er nog niet genoeg van hebben, hier nog even link waarmee het allemaal begon:

http://www.hippocampus-nl.com/s2e.php?content_id=364

Wat ik nog wel op wil merken.
Ik vind dat mevr. Thiel meermalen onterecht is aangevallen als zijnde gekleurd, onkundig, jaloers, selectief e.d.
Imo brengt zij op haar site en op de dvd's heel helder bepaalde dingen in kaart en stelt daar kritische, maar legitieme vragen bij.
Dat zij dat zou doen vanwege persoonlijke belangen, kan ik me niet voorstellen gezien de lading aan negatieve publiciteit die zij over zich heen krijgt! Wat je maar doet voor je plezier!

Was de werkelijkheid rondom het LDR altijd zo prettig (gelukkig is dat door voorstanders hier erkend) en de antwoorden helder en duidelijk, dan was er van al die negatieve berichtgeving geen sprake geweest. Of je nu voor of tegen bent; kennelijk is daar grond voor. Ik hoop dat op de vragen die zij stelt aan de hand van de beelden die ze heeft en die ze heeft geanalyseerd met bewegingsmensen e.a., een duidelijk en bevredigend antwoord komt. Want immers, die hele lijst met vragen die zij op haar site heeft staan, zijn ook in dit topic niet allemaal beantwoord en uit de weg geruimd.

Het is alleen maar in het belang van de voor en tegenstand dat deze vragen serieus genomen worden ipv af te schieten als jalouzie, onkunde of nijd. Blijkt daaruit dat bestaande kritiek weerlegd kan worden, dan is dat alleen maar fijn voor de paarden in kwestie.
Daar gaat het tenslotte om.

**Geplaatst**: 28-06-06 21:52

Re: DVD met discussie over LDR uitgebracht door Ulhrike Tiel

Geplaatst: 28-06-06 21:52

Ulrike is gepromoveerd psychologe, ze is daarnaast gymlerares, heeft de paardrijdinstructeursopleiding gedaan en heeft veel gestudeerd over houding en zit, versus hoe de mens dingen aanleert (dus: hoe leer je beter zitten?). Dit alles heeft ze, geloof ik, in haar geboorteland Oostenrijk gestudeerd.
Qua paardrijden is ze bij mijn weten Z of ZZ-licht qua wedstrijdniveau, en misschien dat ze haar paarden thuis hoger heeft opgeleid dan dit, maar daar durf ik niks met zekerheid over te zeggen.

**Geplaatst**: 28-06-06 21:55

Re: DVD met discussie over LDR uitgebracht door Ulhrike Tiel

Geplaatst: 28-06-06 21:55

Over haar persoonlijke belangen: ze wordt door allerlei paardenbladen genegeerd en door door evenementen niet gevraagd vanwege haar strijd tegen LDR.
Ze is net gescheiden en het zou financiëel een stuk handiger zijn om LDR te laten voor wat het is en daardoor niet geboycot te worden.

**Geplaatst**: 28-06-06 21:57

Re: DVD met discussie over LDR uitgebracht door Ulhrike Tiel

Geplaatst: 28-06-06 21:57

Nou ,bedankt voor de info!!

**Geplaatst**: 28-06-06 22:19

Re: DVD met discussie over LDR uitgebracht door Ulhrike Tiel

Geplaatst: 28-06-06 22:19

Kataklopje, zit jij zo dicht op het vuur dat jij dit allemaal weet? Lachen

**Geplaatst**: 28-06-06 22:23

Re: DVD met discussie over LDR uitgebracht door Ulhrike Tiel

Geplaatst: 28-06-06 22:23

Ulrike huurt meestal een stand op het Horse Event en voor je het weet ben je een uur met haar in gesprek over deze onderwerpen Haha!

**Geplaatst**: 28-06-06 22:55

Re: DVD met discussie over LDR uitgebracht door Ulhrike Tiel

Geplaatst: 28-06-06 22:55

Zij is psychologe maar jij studeert nu voor psychiater? Knipoog

**Geplaatst**: 29-06-06 08:05

Re: DVD met discussie over LDR uitgebracht door Ulhrike Tiel

Geplaatst: 29-06-06 08:05

Tyrza schreef:
Kataklopje, zit jij zo dicht op het vuur dat jij dit allemaal weet?

Die info is niet zo geheimzinnig. Iedereen die Ulrike een beetje kent, weet dit wel.

**Geplaatst**: 03-07-06 14:05

Re: DVD met discussie over LDR uitgebracht door Ulhrike Tiel

Geplaatst: 03-07-06 14:05

Dit weekend naar marienweide geweest en daar naar een clinic van Anky gezien en ik moet zeggen ...ik heb genoten !
Daar vertelde ze ook dat je niet de hele tijd ldr rijd.
Eerst reed Tommie Visser met Turbo Magic en daar werd over het losrijden verteld. Niets ldr maar voorwaarts neerwaarts.
Pas later komt ldr. Daarna reed ze zelf op Mistral en ook hier geen geruk of gepluk. Wel tempo kontrole . Dus weer inspiratie voor thuis.

**Geplaatst**: 03-07-06 18:25

Re: DVD met discussie over LDR uitgebracht door Ulhrike Tiel

Geplaatst: 03-07-06 18:25

Gelukkig zijn er buiten en binnen Nederland paardenliefhebbers die begrijpen dat de barbaarse LDR niets met de schoonheid van de rijkunst en het welzijn van de paarden van doen heeft. Nu de FEI nog.
De incapabele FEIjuryleden dienen plaats te maken voor juryleden die kunnen beoordelen wat de rijkunst overeenkomstig de FEI Rules for Dressage Events inhoudt. Het uitnodigen van juryleden die deze gruwelijke trainingsmethode in de proeven belonen, dient een halt te worden toegeroepen.

Critical documentation on the LDR/Rollkur/Hyperflexion method of riding and training horses

· Commenting letter to the DVD's of riders practising hyper flexion

Collection of short videoclips on youtube (This playlist can be e-mailed inclusive comment to the video’s)

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Forums discussions on this topic

Enkele discussies over Hyperflexion op internet:

http://www.cfjd.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl

http://www.ffe.com/cgi-bin/yabb/

http://www.allege-ideal.com/component/o ... 3/lang,fr/

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/

http://www.ultimatedressage.com/forums/index.php

http://www.fokt.nl/index.php

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Classical ... =145232294

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/sh ... 54&page=10

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Dear Dr Thiel:

I appreciate your three DVDs. All the horses you show have ruined walks, and walk is "the mother of the gaits." If the walk is not at least maintained, the training is suspect. If the walk is ruined, the training is bankrupt. Perhaps you might go to my web site pages on injuries that are becoming more and more common in dressage horses: desmopathies in the nuchal ligament and even bone spurs between the first cervical vertebra and the skull. Take a look at Dr. Bingold's thermograph of a horse held in hyper flexion: the neck is so irritated that the bones can be seen through the skin! And thermography, as I am sure you are aware, gathers its data from the surface of the horse...

http://nicholnl.wcp.muohio.edu/dingosBr ... ntent.html
http://nicholnl.wcp.muohio.edu/dingosBr ... ebit3.html

(injuries from rollkuer)

As a dressage judge (very junior in status, senior in experience), I am disturbed at what I see in the arena. I recently scribed for the whole FEI series of classes in a CDI***. Three horses stood on their hind legs, not just a "levade" position but absolutely vertical. Riders seemed unaware they were split seconds from death or serious injury from being crushed by a horse falling over backwards. Having seen the rollkuer warm ups (yes, since Nicole Uphoff and Rembrandt, it has spread internationally) and understanding the anatomy of breathing and connections within the horse that function in correct dressage, I understood the desperate reactions of the horses to brutal riding. In fact, the winner of the Grand Prix Special was the most brutal rider of all --- scoring a 65+%. I have personally ridden one of the horses he ruined: the poor creature had to be turned out to pasture because its whole neck was damaged. People ride how they are judged, as my mentor Dr Henri van Schaik used to say. It would seem that there is a vicious circle operating: the 5 judges during 3 days I scribed for had weary tones in their voices as they gave "6" for horses that were behind the vertical, short in the neck, croup high in extensions and flying changes... all material on your video. These international judges know perfectly well that they will not be asked back to international shows if they give "big name" riders the low scores they deserve. So the horrible riding is imitated by others, and the judges wearily give their scores... and the riding quality continues its downward spiral.

As someone who works with dressage horses daily, I never (repeat, never) find the need to do the hyper flexion that is winning in the ring. My horses are happy and eager to perform (you will see one of them performing free longe canter pirouettes on the web site as well as "forward, down, out" on free longe with natural head position). And I am continually called on to decontract horses that are worked in rollkuer and who are justifiably afraid of the contact. In fact, I do more than 99% of my work with my horses in forward, down, out (longe, free longe, riding). They know their work in collection: it is the foundation for collection that needs constant renewal. And how many riders have left their tests in the warm up (as shown on your DVD) because their minds are wrongly focused on illusions of what it takes to "win" rather than understanding the needs of their horses.

http://nicholnl.wcp.muohio.edu/dingosBr ... ndLow.html
http://nicholnl.wcp.muohio.edu/dingosBr ... pared.html

It is my opinion, based on 5 years of scribing at CDI***, 15 years of judging, and comparing what the ancients wrote with modern glossy magazine coverage, that dressage has lost its way. If this were a trivial matter, those of us who are concerned could be considered to be grumblers. But someone is going to die in the arena on a horse that has to choose between breathing or being ridden. As La Guériniérè says in École de Cavalerie (1769, my translation of his text):
All sciences and arts have principles and rules, by means of which one makes discoveries leading to their improvement [perfection]. Horsemanship is the one art for which it seems one needs only practice. However, practice without true principles [as a guide] is nothing but routine, the fruit of which is a strained and uncertain performance, a false diamond which dazzles demi-connoisseurs who are more often impressed by the accomplishments of the horse than by the skills of the horseman. From this comes the reason for the small number of well-trained horses, and the lack of ability one sees at present in the majority of those who style themselves horsemen.

Thank you for the DVDs. Maybe there will be fewer demi-connoisseurs as a result. About the FEI doing something about the problem so that riding reality matches its pious rhetoric, well, time will tell.

Dr. Nancy Nicholson
Interdisciplinary Studies

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Hello Ulrike !

I am a 34 yrs Old veterinarian here in Málaga ( just in the south coast, Andalucia, SPAIN).
I work as equine clinician for nearly 10 years, and during my stage at university I have research and published about equine biomechanics of passage and effects of collection. Since child, I was a horse enthusiast as well, and since this age I always have been involved with riding and equestrianism, in all the aspects surrounding dressage and classical equestrianism.

I am happy surprised, because when I was at university we was a group of friends a little bit "equestrian-freakies" and used to trip every competition for recording in the WARMING UP arenas every horse that seems to us interesting, JUST you show me in your videos!. We have been always great "fanatics" of Spanish Riding School of Vienna and the Classican Equestrianism as source of the dressage as equestrian sport, at the same time we have been a bit sarcastic and critical with some aspect of competition and FEI rules... It is very surprising for me that a lot of the ideas, thougths and conversation we used to had at these times ( period between 1991 and 1997) are reviewed and expresed in your personal page and in your linked webpages.
At these university times we used to joke using a paralelism between "The dark side of the force" of famous StarWars movies, when a good rider, used his skills and abilities for create "electric competition horses", now known as Rollkur trained horses. We have seen several riders ( Ignacio Rambla is one of the most notorious) that use this technique since a lot of time ago, in Spanish Riding School of Jerez, but now since Anky and some top competitors used, we have a real topic for "international discussion" ( Globalization is not as bad it seems ! Tong uitsteken

).
For me, Rollkur is like a Radical interpretation of Baucher´s Theories ( 1812), we can call them like Competitive NeoBaucherist, but sometimes Baucher and French equestrianism, (based on understanding the horse in "separates pieces" for unlock and combine according rider forces, like a mechanical device) is reivindicated for "Baroque way" riders that think about themselves to be the opposite side of Rollkur, but maybe are a soft Baucherists as well.
Very Interesting the reflections about the use of the curb as a "jaw twich", and the term "electric".
It is a fact that horses with a 2-3 degree of laryngeal hemiplegya, worsen dramatically their breath and increase inspiratory noise and general discomfort, when they are forced to maintain a high-flexed presentation of head and neck during collected canter, and they get a relief and improves the inspiratory noises, when they are allowed to extend and relax the poll.

But FEI big structures, you know, are interested in competition at all levels, and good riders, sometimes becomes young riders trainers, and people change the equestrian priorities for the "mathematical priorities".
-Horses are "labeled" in order of his percentages in competition, they said " I need a 70% horse" and nonsenses like that instead to try to improve harmony and horse body and movements, that is the aim of a real rider
- Of course, if horses can be "labeled" in percentages, the price of the horses, commision for the brokers, and need of a "good trainer" ( that means the trainer that make his pupils to WIN competitions) and all the circle is completed...

All these creates a parallel fake equestrian world VERY DANGEROUS for novice riders and young riders, because the values of a real relationship beteween horse and rider, the value of a real equestrianism and the real classical horsemanships are said but never practiced in depth, because remain confused and covered with percentages, numbers and classifications as main priorities.

Ok!! there is a lot to say about this, and maybe for nothing, because horse world are VERY SMALL, and "three or four cats"( as we used to say in Spain) are not going to change the mentality of the 80% of horse users ( that DONT want to change, really)... and another World problems are more serious than horses, I always think...

It was a pleasure to reading your webpage and see your videos! Thank You and Good Luck, I will support the idea as we have been done since a lot of time, day by day...

Guillermo García Palma
Veterinario Colegiado (812 Málaga)

PD= I am doing research about equine (horses, mules and donkeys) welfare, and maybe you can help me answering this since your point of view...

Imagine that you have to objetive measure with recordable data, the status of EQUINE WELFARE inside a population of horses...
WHAT would be the parameters or measures, or data records you will use for a protocol that could be impressed in a form ??

Thank You very much, and see you !

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I just want to say "go go go!!!"

Keep up the extremely good work - be strong!

The only thing I - as an absolute amateur - personally can not find on many sites are "good idols" - who can we trust to watch, admire and dream about?

With the warmest regards from a Swedish amateur // Guri

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Thank you so much for putting this information out there. I am a dressage instructor in Phoenix AZ and have trained in Germany for 2 years. I learned many things over the years I have studied dressage, but the two that most apparently address this training method are 1)you must consistently train your horse as you will ride him in competition, and 2)in dressage, if it doesn't look right, it isn't. I recently responded to an inquiry from one of my students:

"Hyperflexion is an extreme over flexion of the vertebrae in the neck, either down, to the right or to the left. It's supposed benefits are to supple the horse, however when it has been brought to its proponents attention that it is actually creating a balance which is decidedly opposite of that we are trying to create in dressage (we like to encourage the horse to bear more weight on his hindquarters as opposed to allowing, or in this case forcing, the horse to fall on the forehand) it was then said by the users of hyperflexion that this was a means of dealing with submission issues. And it would, as it creates a situation where the horse is out of balance and not allowed to see ahead of him because of his optical anatomy. The horse then becomes submissive because of his fear, and thus tense.....which is also something we are ultimately trying NOT to create in a dressage mount. So, you see why the 'classisists' might be down on it. I am, as what I have seen of it goes against everything I have been taught about dressage."

After seeing these video clips, it appears that I only scratched the surface in my response to my student. I have a difficult time visualizing how a less experienced rider than the ones that you have featured could possibly create more discomfort or throw his mount more off balance. I will be having all of my students review the videos you have posted on You Tube.

With Regards,
Justine Wilson

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Talking about horror, I have a copy of the DVD

made by Ulrike Thiel about Rollkur warm-up

technique. It is a very amazing viewing for

people who do not know what Rollkur is all

about. Really horrific.

I send all my gratitude to Ulrike to have made

this DVD accessible to all in order to educate

and inform.

Anyone who wish to see this DVD and who

lives in the area of Newbury in Berkshire in

England, can come and see the DVD at my

yard, Great Farm Stables, West-Woodhay,

Newbury, RG20 0BS. (07915 388 962)

I am having the DVD copied and will have some

available for vets and judges.

There will be a meeting of Xenophon taking place

Switzerland on the 9th of June and would like

to ask the group to send me emails or even

better letters of complain about the Rollkur

technique that I can bring to the members.

These letters can be addressed to Dr F. Sluyter,

Federation Equestre Internationale in Lausanne,

Dr Sluyter is manager of the department

health, code of conduct etc.. within the FEI.

I would hand over your email or letter to

Gerd Heuschmann and the foundation

member of this association to show our support

for their tremendous dedication against the

sophisticated torture applied to horses.

Or, alternatively, send an email directly to

Dr Fritz Sluyter who is the manager of the

FEI re the Code of Conduct.

His email address is f.sluyter@horsesport.org

Please email him your comments about this horrific

method of training one of God's creatures.

Dressage has strict rules and the FEI rules

themselves stipulate that the horse's welfare

is a priority and this include the training techniques.

I include the following official FEI CODE OF

CONDUCT text :

THE FEI CODE OF CONDUCT

for the Welfare of the Horse

1.. The Fédération Equestre Internationale (FEI) expects all those

involved in international equestrian sport to adhere to the FEI's Code of

Conduct and to acknowledge and accept that at all times the welfare of the

horse must be paramount and must never be subordinated to competitive or

commercial influences.

2.. At all stages during the preparation and training of competition

horses, welfare must take precedence over all other demands. This includes

good horse management, training methods, farriery and tack, and

transportation.

3.. Horses and competitors must be fit, competent and in good health

before they are allowed to compete. This encompasses medication use,

surgical procedures that threaten welfare or safety, pregnancy in mares and

the misuse of aids.

4.. Events must not prejudice horse welfare. This involves paying careful

attention to the competition areas, ground surfaces, weather conditions,

stabling, site safety and fitness of the horse for onward travel after the

event.

5.. Every effort must be made to ensure that horses receive proper

attention after they have competed and that they are treated humanely when

their competition careers are over. This covers proper veterinary care,

competition injuries, euthanasia and retirement.

The FEI urges all involved with the sport to attain the highest levels of

education in their areas of expertise.

Catherine Iselin

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I assume that you are German so I hope you can undersant English as I don't know much German.
I just wanted to thank you for putting the vidoes of Rollkur for everyone to see. Here in Australia we've had some reports in Equestrian magazines but without seeing it it's difficult to really understand the concept.
As far as I know the practice of Rollkur isn't widely used in Australia and I hope it never does. I'm alway aiming for beauty and harmony is my riding and I can see non of that in the videos I've looked at. It makes me very sad for the horses and for the future of Dressage.
Karen.

Horse Show In Heaven

One day in heaven, Saint Peter, Saint Paul and Saint John were standing around near the horse paddocks watching the horses frolic. "I am certainly bored," stated John. "Me too," Paul chimed as Peter stood and watched the horses. "I know!" Peter began. "Why don't we have a horse show?" Paul and John thought that the idea was great except for one small detail that Paul pointed out. "Who are we to compete against, Peter?" Paul asked. The trio pondered a moment when Peter realized the answer. "We will call up Satan and invite him to the horse show. I mean, we have all of the finest horses here in heaven, all of the World and National Champions are here. His stable is ridden with the spoiled, difficult and mean horses. We are certain to win at the show!" And so the trio calls up Satan on the other realm communication lines and invited him to their horse show. Satan laughed and asked why they would want to be humiliated like that, because he would certainly beat them. Peter, Paul and John did not understand. "What do you mean Satan?" Peter asked. "We have all of the National and World Champion horses in our stable in heaven. How could you possibly beat us? Satan paused a moment and then laughed. "Have you forgotten so soon gentlemen?

I have all the judges!"

Sehr verehrte Frau Thiel,

Anbei eine Abhandlung von dem Bericht von Herrn v. Ziegner, der durch meine Vermittlung in der Dressage Today erschienen ist.

Der gleiche Bericht wurde von dem Ultimate Dressage Bulletin Board mit großem Interesse aufgegriffen und dabattiert. Auch ich schrieb meine Meinung darüber, die ich an Sie weiter gebe.

Wir müssen alle zusammen halten, damit diese “Zwangsjackenreiterei”, wie es Herr v. Ziegner trefflich bezeichnet, nicht noch mehr unsere armen Pferde quält.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen

Walter Zettl

P.S. Hier ist der Weg wie Sie in das Bulletin Board kommen können: www.ultimatedressage.com – click on “Forums” – click on “Dressage Training & Instructions” – click on “Albrecht von Ziegner’s Opionion”

Thank you, Kasette, for posting Col. von Ziegner’s opinion .

Col. von Ziegner asked me to try to get his response to “The Workshop in Lausanne” published in the Dressage Today. After I read his response, I was happy to offer it to the DT, and they immediately agreed to publish it.

Col. von Ziegner is an old friend of mine from many years ago. He is also an advocate of classical dressage, like me and many of the BB-friends, as well as of the new Xenophon Gesellschaft. He was one of the founders. They are against the “Zwangsjackenreiterei”. Col. von Ziegner is 84 years old, is still very active in teaching and riding. His remarks touched my soul.

It is incredible that these people, who are at the head of the FEI, are allowing this kind of riding. One should question their knowledge of horsemanship. Should not their priority be the well-being of the horse? What did they do about the protection of the horses at Lausanne? All they did was create a new word for the Zwangsjackenreiterei – “Hyperflexion of the neck”, and which can only be used by “top” riders. Someone please tell me what is correct about this new riding style? By the way, under Baucher, we already experienced a similar type of riding. The horses were tortured, and they became soulless creatures.

As a result of force riding, the horses hardly stays still, they are very tense, and they do not do a correct walk or no walk at all. One rider (whose horse does not do a walk at all anymore because he is tense and frightened), made the suggestion to take the walk out of the higher classes of dressage. Why not then take everything with which they might have trouble out? Like a correct collecting trot? The “hyperflexion of the neck” horse does a kind of passage. In the medium and extended trot, the horse throws his front legs unnaturally high, and therefore the horse only takes very short steps with his hind legs to balance himself, and is not covering any ground. It takes half an hour to get across the diagonal! The canter is too short and stiff, and during flying changes, the horse swings to the left and to the right, due to too much leg moving to the back. The pirouettes are 4-beat, because the rules require them to be as small as possible. We have to change the rules to make them bigger so that the horse is able perform them in a correct 3-beat canter. In the piaffe one does not see any forward movement because of force used in the training: too strong hand and leg (spurs) aids. To stay balanced the horse has to cross the front legs or swing to the left and right side. Most of the time, the horse is too short through the neck, and escapes the aids.

The three gaits should never lose their naturalness, but with hyperflexion of the neck, what is left? Those poor horses are not “gymnastized” to make them physically and mentally stronger, but are trained mechanically to perform a certain test and then they feel they are in a “Zwangsjacke” (straightjacket).

Please keep up the fight for the classical (humane) training of our horses. They will be thankful and show us their appreciation through their trust and devotion.

P.S. A short time ago, Dr. Ulrike Thiel got in contact with me. She has a small institute in Holland which researches the training of dressage horses and its effects. She heard of me through my German edition of “Dressage in Harmony”. By reading my book she recognized my philosophy about classical training. I have to admit that this lady left a big impression on me, as she does in Holland (the lion’s den of the Zwangsjackenreiterei) fighting this type of riding. In the meantime, she sent me three DVD’s which show training in the warm-up ring with hyperflexion of the neck. When she asked Anke and Sjef to publish them, they threatened her with a lawsuit. If their training is humane, why would they prohibit her showing those DVD’s? If your are interested in learning more about her and her work, here is her website: www.hippocampus-nl.com.

Posted: 28 May 2006 01:46 Post subject:

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Thank you, Kasette, for posting Col. von Ziegner’s opinion .
Col. von Ziegner asked me to try to get his response to “The Workshop in Lausanne” published in the Dressage Today. After I read his response, I was happy to offer it to the DT, and they immediately agreed to publish it.

Col. von Ziegner is an old friend of mine from many years ago. He is also an advocate of classical dressage, like me and many of the BB-friends, as well as of the new Xenophon Gesellschaft. He was one of the founders. They are against the “Zwangsjackenreiterei”. Col. von Ziegner is 84 years old, is still very active in teaching and riding. His remarks touched my soul.

It is incredible that these people, who are at the head of the FEI, are allowing this kind of riding. One should question their knowledge of horsemanship. Should not their priority be the well-being of the horse? What did they do about the protection of the horses at Lausanne? All they did was create a new word for the Zwangsjackenreiterei – “Hyperflexion of the neck”, and which can only be used by “top” riders. Someone please tell me what is correct about this new riding style? By the way, under Baucher, we already experienced a similar type of riding. The horses were tortured, and they became soulless creatures.

As a result of force riding, the horses hardly stays still, they are very tense, and they do not do a correct walk or no walk at all. One rider (whose horse does not do a walk at all anymore because he is tense and frightened), made the suggestion to take the walk out of the higher classes of dressage. Why not then take everything with which they might have trouble out? Like a correct collecting trot? The “hyperflexion of the neck” horse does a kind of passage. In the medium and extended trot, the horse throws his front legs unnaturally high, and therefore the horse only takes very short steps with his hind legs to balance himself, and is not covering any ground. It takes half an hour to get across the diagonal! The canter is too short and stiff, and during flying changes, the horse swings to the left and to the right, due to too much leg moving to the back. The pirouettes are 4-beat, because the rules require them to be as small as possible. We have to change the rules to make them bigger so that the horse is able perform them in a correct 3-beat canter. In the piaffe one does not see any forward movement because of force used in the training: too strong hand and leg (spurs) aids. To stay balanced the horse has to cross the front legs or swing to the left and right side. Most of the time, the horse is too short through the neck, and escapes the aids.

The three gaits should never lose their naturalness, but with hyperflexion of the neck, what is left? Those poor horses are not “gymnastized” to make them physically and mentally stronger, but are trained mechanically to perform a certain test and then they feel they are in a “Zwangsjacke” (straightjacket).

Please keep up the fight for the classical (humane) training of our horses. They will be thankful and show us their appreciation through their trust and devotion.

P.S. A short time ago, Dr. Ulrike Thiel got in contact with me. She has a small institute in Holland which researches the training of dressage horses and its effects. She heard of me through my German edition of “Dressage in Harmony”. By reading my book she recognized my philosophy about classical training. I have to admit that this lady left a big impression on me, as she does in Holland (the lion’s den of the Zwangsjackenreiterei) fighting this type of riding. In the meantime, she sent me three DVD’s which show training in the warm-up ring with hyperflexion of the neck. When she asked Anke and Sjef to publish them, they threatened her with a lawsuit. If their training is humane, why would they prohibit her showing those DVD’s? If your are interested in learning more about her and her work, here is her website: www.hippocampus-nl.com.

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My perception of rollkur/zwangsjacke issue:

Rollkur and riding the horse behind the vertical have become widely accepted in the dressage competition community and there are those who would like any further discussion on rollkur to go away but as long as rollkur is promoted as ‘dressage’ training the controversy will continue. It’s not a matter of argumentativeness or close mindedness. There are valid reasons why many supporters of the Equestrian Art can not accept horses being ridden behind the vertical as dressage:

• The horse’s natural head and neck position express the horse’s balance (or imbalance) or discomfort. Riding the horse in a forced frame takes away the horse’s voice.

• Either the horse must use incorrect neck muscles in order to hold its face behind the vertical or the rider must actively hold the horse behind the vertical. Either way, undue tension is created.

• Riding the horse behind the vertical constrains the horse's neck, restricts its movements, distorts its gaits and is in direct conflict with the horse’s nature.

• Riding the horse behind the vertical makes it impossible for the horse to use it haunches correctly and find the relaxation that enables the horse to enjoy its freedom of movement and independent balance.

• When the horse’s face is behind the vertical the horse can not carry its head and neck in balance over its shoulders so that the forehand can be efficiently lifted and carried with the assistance of the haunches.

• The thrusting energy of the hind legs does not travel through to the poll. The energy only makes it to the area in the neck where the vertebra are ‘broken’, at which point the energy is stifled by the head and remaining neck that are hanging downward heavily off the front end of the horse. The weight of the already overburdened forehand is increased.

The purpose of the Equestrian Art is to harmoniously develop the physique and ability of the horse by improving the rhythm and purity of its gaits to the point where the horse relaxes and naturally reaches forward with its whole spine to offer the rider a soft elastic contact with the bit, thereby enabling the rider to refine the horse’s balance and energy to collection. It’s improving the horse’s balance that not only makes the horse more enjoyable to ride, it can help extend its useful and pain free life. Keep in mind that the high airs above the ground – the display of ultimate refinement of balance and energy – don’t require extreme ‘stretching’. The classical principles that the art is based on were not arrived at as a matter of personal taste. They were derived from the laws of balance and behavior science, with clear objectives in mind. Balance is a matter of physics and can not be influenced by personal preference.

It doesn’t take an expert to see that even the ‘top’ horses who have been trained behind the vertical or with rollkur (Albrecht von Ziegner's uses the fitting term, “zwangsjacke”), exhibit increased weight on the forehand, distorted gaits, tension, false head sets, lack of throughness and imbalance, all of which inhibit engagement. In essence, riding the horse behind the vertical produces the opposite effect of what the Equestrian Art sets out to accomplish. I see the focus on rollkur as a distraction created to take attention away from the heart of the issue, which is that horses, performing fundamentally incorrect work by classical standards, are being highly rewarded in competition.

The FEI instituted the International Dressage Event in order to protect the Equestrian Art from the abuses to which it can be exposed and to preserve the Art in the purity of its principles. Either the FEI will uphold the enduring classical principles of dressage or it won’t. The development of the sport at the expense of its principles can not, in all honesty, be considered ‘development’ of the sport of Dressage. It is the development of another riding style and ought to be officially recognized as such.

If the FEI is going to offer Dressage in competition then the FEI owes it to it’s the equestrian community to carefully select judges who understand and uncompromisingly uphold the classical Art in the purity of its principles and who will recognize and reward correctly working balanced horses.

http://www.ridingart.com/visual-points.htm
http://www.ridingart.com/balance.htm

Tonja Dausend

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dieblauereiterin (4 hours ago)

this is a horror. thank you for posting this. i think every horse person should watch this. i literally could not finish watching it bc i started to feel sick and get very upset.

(reply to this) (remove comment)

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Thank you SO much for exposing rollkur for what it really is!! I have HATED the practice or "training method" since I first saw it used, and I hate to see people who continue to abuse their horses in this way rewarded (With WORLD RECORD SCORES) for using it!!!

I will be bookmarking your page, please keep up the good work!!

*hugs*
Jamie from Texas

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New Comment Posted to video hyperflexion 7
The comment is:
Thanks for having the courage to spread the word and post these videos. Something has to happen soon, surely?!

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Hallo Ulrike,
heel goed idee op deze manier openbaar maken. Er is echter een probleem. Veel mensen weten niet dat dit slecht is, ze weten niet hoe een GOEDE warming up zou moeten kunnen uitzien.
Ik zou aanraden de 2 korte opnames in een video plaatsen als vergelijking; bijvoorbeel van piaffe, waarbij een paard met rollkur werd getraind -dus achterbenen wijd en springend en met hoge achterhand, en een andere paard klassiek - dus verzameld en recht.
Ik bedoel: korte stuk (5-10 sec) met zelfde beweging van zelfde kant ( een rollkur andere klassiek) en meerdere voorbeelden achter elkaar op een video.
Mensen moeten kunnen leren zien WAT de resultaat is van deze training . (Overdrijven beweging, op voorhand en achter teugel.
Veel kracht gewenst en ga zo door!!
jirina

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Beste Ulrieke Thiel,

Wilt u mij de prijs laten weten van de DVD over de Rollkürmethode?

Dit n.a.v. het artikeltje hierover in de Bit.

Overigens hadden wij enige tijd geleden emailcontact, ook over ditzelfde onderwerp. U stuurde mij toen uw bijzonder heldere reactie aan dhr. Rosie van het blad De Strengen, over laag en rond rijden. Jammer genoeg is dit blijkbaar niet gepubliceerd, maar toen ik het laatst weer eens doorlas, viel me op dat het nog steeds niets van z'n actualiteit verloren heeft.

Ik vind het nog steeds fantastisch wat u doet, om door ARGUMENTEN duidelijk te maken dat de Hyperflexionmethode (zoals het nu blijkbaar genoemd wordt) niet goed voor een paard is, noch fysiek, noch psychisch.

Ik lees zoveel als ik te pakken kan krijgen over dit onderwerp, maar het ergert me steeds weer opnieuw dat er zo weinig echt met argumenten op wordt ingegaan, met name door de voorstanders. Want dat een paar dierenartsen zeggen dat ze geen afwijkingen aan de nek van de betrokken paarden hebben kunnen vinden, zegt natuurlijk niets.

Bovendien: WAT is er dan zo goed aan een dergelijke methode, welke voordelen levert het op?

Daarbij komt: Ik heb nog nooit antwoord op de vraag kunnen krijgen, wat nu eigenlijk het verschil is met het rijden met een slofteugel? Want krijg je in beide gevallen niet hetzelfde silhouet van het paard te zien? Maar ja, een zichzelf respecterende dressuurruiter wil zich natuurlijk nooit laten zien met een slofteugel, want dat is volgens hen slechts een methode voor die rauwdauwers van springruiters!

Jammer is dat een van de grootste aanhangers van de Rollkür, publieksidool Anky is, die door de massa zo ongeveer heilig verklaard is. Dus iedereen die kritiek op haar manier van rijden heeft, wordt meteen jaloezie verweten en dit feit staat ook een open discussie in de weg.

Ik wens u in ieder geval opnieuw veel succes met uw 'kruistocht' tegen de Rollkür en wacht uw reactie graag af!

Met vriendelijke groeten,

Erna N.

Ruinen

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Comments

Rollkur

Written by Chianti on 2006-06-01 21:50:10

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I am sitting here crying from the pain I feel that these pictures of horses ridden in rollkur portray. I did not even manage to look at all the photos as the pain I feel is too overwhelming.

What has our beautiful sport of dressage come to??!!!??

The horses' eyes say it all. There is no need for proof, no need for research, just a look into the horses' souls is all you need to know that this is a fundamentally wrong approach to training. We are failing to fulfill our biggest responsibility in riding: to always put the horse's welfare first!

You will not see me watch nor support any international competition until the FEI has taken a clear stand on this issue. It is long overdue!

Simone

British Columbia, Canada

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Ban Rollkur

Written by Cathy on 2006-06-02 03:03:12

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Actually why should we even have to discuss banning it? Why would any sensible horse person decide that it's ok?

Cathy

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Rollkur

Written by BridgetL on 2006-06-02 06:15:42

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In the U.S., tail gingering, tail deadening and foot soring once were status quo. But people spoke up and now it is illegal. Let's do the same thing with rollkur.

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Written by Funky MeerKAT on 2006-06-02 07:47:40

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How can anyone look into the eyes of those horses and say that there is nothing wrong? They look trapped, caged, pained, angry... dead.

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Rollkur

Written by hmarcantoni on 2006-06-02 08:06:09

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FEI has failed to keep dressage in accordance with classical principles and dressage became some bad riding. It's time to stop to participate to this cruel absurdity.

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Rollkur

Written by maverick on 2006-06-02 08:32:25

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How can the FEI condone this training method that produces horses so far removed from the principles and guidelines set out in it's own rules?

How can people watch this & say it is OK for horses to be ridden this way? Where is the Harmony & Lightness in Rollkur? These are indeed dark days for the art of dressage.

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Rollkur

Written by Alison on 2006-06-02 14:19:54

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I find it impossible to comprehend that anyone could look at the pictures and videos of horses in the rollkur positions and think it could be OK to do that. I showed this to totally non-horsey people and they thought it was horrible. Just wait until animal rights people take it up as a cause. We may live to see dressage banned entirely if this is not stopped. Remember what happened to fox hunting. .

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Rollkur

Written by nix on 2006-06-02 18:57:50

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How can the FEI not ban what is no less than abuse? These horses are yanked into unnatural positions which without a doubt will cause muscular damage and compromise breathing. You only have to look at their dull, dead eyes to see that the horses' spirits are broken too. There is nothing harmonious or beautiful in this sort of "competition" training.

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Written by planete on 2006-06-02 19:55:23

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I look at these pictures and I do not see respect for the horse, I see an unflinching determination to force the horse to the will of the rider by any means. Even if it does no lasting physical damage (and it probably does), should not any rider be ashamed to use such rough riding to be successful? There is no partnership, no beauty and no art in this kind of riding and rewarding it is a crime against the horse.

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Rollkur

Written by ray on 2006-06-02 19:57:10

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Simply cruelty. There is no way around that. There can never be justifcation for cruelty. There can never be harmony with this outright cruelty, even with such a giving creature. These "riders'" should be prosecuted.

It's sadistic to enjoy harming these beautiful animals. Whats wrong with correct riding?

If the FEI will disaprove of this, more riders will learn to ride effectively, peacefully and the end result will be many much more beautiful pairs worth competing against. we can save the art as a sport yet!

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Rollkur

Written by Lucia on 2006-06-02 20:50:08

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Good Grief what can you say?

I fail to see the actual point of the practice of 'Rollkur', moreover the pictures show unhappy tense horses with riders forcing them into an unnatural and tense outline - hardly the picture of elegance and harmony dressage riders should surely be striving for? I cannot understand why this is still considered acceptable? Goodness knows the long term effects of this forced position on the horse, both physically and mentally. I am humbled that these horses are so generous as to be trying their best to do what is being asked of them. If this is what 'dressage' is about (it certainly wasn't when I began riding years ago!) I think I'll give it a miss tthankyou, and will continue to do my utmost to ride with consideration for my horses welfare whether it gets me placed or not...its not all about the ribbons as someone once said.

So sad.

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Lucinda

Written by kharakterc on 2006-06-02 21:20:42

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Do we really need to do "research" to know that Rollkeur is inhumane, injurious, and disrespectful to thebody and soul of the animal. Is that the result we want?

This is not beauty, partnership, or any quality I strive for in my dressage journey.

So terribly sad and wrong!

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Ban Rolkur - now!

Written by Teddysmum on 2006-06-02 21:51:52

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How can the FEI allow this practice? These pictures clearly show brutality, ugliness and cruelty. Hardly the image that dressage is expected to convey. These riders and the FEI should be utterly ashamed.

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Stop the madness

Written by krosskopf on 2006-06-02 23:57:18

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My heart aches for the horses that must endure life at the hands of these selfish riders. It is shameful that this is allowed anywhere near a sanctioned event or any event for that matter. We must speak for theses precious forgiving animals and stop the madness, now!

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This is barbaric

Written by sueru on 2006-06-03 00:16:18

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Anyone who knows anything about riding and horse biomechanics must know this is wrong, cruel and should be banned. The damage done to these horses' muscles and ligaments will be severe and permanent. This has NO place in equestrianism, let alone sport.

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Speechless

Written by luvs2ride1979 on 2006-06-03 05:27:12

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The horses all look hollow in the back and strung out behind. What saddens me is knowing that the JUDGES are who is making this problem worse. If judge would not be placing these horses who have fancy front end movement, but are lacking everywhere else, than this "training method" would not be popular or "effective". Very sad indeed!

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Straight Jacket

Written by R. van Kralingen on 2006-06-03 07:19:05

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Ashamed to live in Holland, 'Home of Rollkur' Why does the FEI keep changing the rules to accomodate this way of riding. Please lets get back to respect, balance and honest, classical rules.

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straight jacket

Written by tricia osborne on 2006-06-03 08:21:12

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My husband, who has never seen a photo nor heard of rolkur has just walked in while I was looking at the photos and has gasped in horror. He's not the least bit interested in any explanation as to why anyone would do this to an animal - it's just plain cruel. You don't need to know anything about horses or be any sort of expert to know this is not right. His view will be the view of every non-horse person out there.

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No more reward for forceful riding!

Written by philippetemp on 2006-06-03 08:35:45

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Rollkur is not a method of dressage, it's a mean to win awards. It's a matter of competition, not education; so, if judges begin to heavily underscore any sign of forceful riding, rollkur will disappear. Forbidding flash and crank nosebands, verifying the tightness of the chin strap and of the noseband before the test would make obvious any jaw abuse, and would be easy to set on.

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In absolute disgust!!

Written by gypsycobfan on 2006-06-03 10:10:38

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I am appauled to see that this is still being allowed, i have spoken with many freinds about this and a few of us ride dressage but would never ever put our horses through the pain that i see in these pictures! I see that the faces of the riders are blanked out, they should be show and named and shamed for doing such a barbaric practice, these people do not care for horses at all,they are all about the money they hope to gain, in each picture i see a horse straining its neck so much it looks as if its going to snap,also i can see many horses gasping for breath,how can the FEI allow this to happen,surely they can see the cruelty, if they do not then they should be banned and a new set of judges etc be installed,

BAN THIS NOW! FOREVER and any person seen to ride like this has no heart at all for themselves or their horses

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Is winning really THAT important?!!

Written by Melinda on 2006-06-03 13:55:04

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Those horses are crying. How can anyone not see that, especially the top level riders?

FEI, for heaven's sake, get some guts and do your job.

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what has happened to dressage

Written by mbm on 2006-06-03 18:24:09

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when the topriders use a method that is clearly abusive and ugly and that does not produce anything ressembling what dressage should be.

I am appalled that the FEI judges would reward these methods by overlooking clear imbalance, overtempo, lack of engagement etc.

If *i* can see these faults why cant the FEI judges? is the W\"WOW"factor so important that the FEI is willing to throw away the tenants of correct dressage?

Please start rewarding the horses that show clear collection and engagement.

Stop rewarding Rollkur and it will stop being used.

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That is the most disgusting thing I have

Written by rebel rach on 2006-06-03 20:15:12

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I am sitting at my computer feeling sick to the bone, how dare these 'top' RIDERS abuse their horses. Dressage is supposed to be beautiful, not forced and ugly like those pictures illustrate. Never have i seen a horse so forced, and in a way so confused and frightened.

WHY THE F**K are the FEI letting this happen. It makes me sick. Top competition riders are supposed to be role models. Enough inexpirienced idiots use it as it is, this is adding to the fire. Those horses undoubtedly are going to expirience pain, health, breathing problems. In my opinion any one who puts an animal under this much stress should be shot!!!

I am appauled that the FEI are acting like this and allowing it. If they were doing their job, they would wake up and look at the pain and stress these poor animals are put under.

For god's sake, it's good to ride on the bit, but definitely not behind it. This issue winds me up so much it makes me want to cry.

Those animals look overworked and sad. They look like they're crying. Dressage is giving itself a bad name by the FEI allowing this.

I would willingly take on any 'TOP GRAND PRIX' rider who uses this technique... for god's sake i would take on 'ANKY' if i'd had to.

SURELY EVERY ONE CAN SEE THIS NEEDS TO STOP, THESE ANIMALS ARE IN PAIN!!!

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Stop the madness!

Written by perrykins on 2006-06-03 21:10:31

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The pictures brought me to tears. FEI members, please stop the madness. Ban the use of Rollkur in competitions, on the showgrounds, in warm-ups--everywhere!! STOP REWARDING riders with high score marks--the end result DOES NOT justify the means. Do this: judge a show with your chin tucked onto your chest, and lift your eyes upward so you can try to see. Stay that way for an hour or two. Maybe then you can empathize with the horses!

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Stop the cruelty

Written by cwimages on 2006-06-03 21:13:36

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Please put a ban on this cruel and inhumane practice. USDF and USEF should be ashamed to allow it to happen in the warm up arenas of its shows.

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it must stop

Written by rebel rach on 2006-06-03 22:04:59

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this is so inhumane, and it gives dressage an awful name. it has to stop. these horses want to please their riders, and the riders want to abuse a beautiful trusting animal. i hate it and it really makes me want to cry.

How many more horses must be ridden like this???

What gives anyone the right to abuse an animal. like i said anyone who rides like that and advocates the use of Rollkur should be shot.

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Alexis

Written by alexishaines on 2006-06-03 22:27:05

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Words fail me. These noble creatures allow us the honour of sitting on their backs and this is how they are repaid?

This isn't warming up it is simply abuse.

What happened to the 'happy athlete'?

Alexis Haines

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Now I Ride Western

Written by Victoriacummings on 2006-06-04 01:34:31

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I rode English for 20 years. Then, I learned about a relaxed rein and a natural head-set. My two Quarter Horses are magically easy to ride - they feel almost no pressure on their mouths - I think what I want them to do, and they respond. Why would anyone want to abuse these wise, loyal companions in such a sadistic way? This is not a partnership - it is dominance - full of human ego and never considering what is best for the horse. How can anyone who loves horses consider this kind of treatment to be acceptable?

Victoria Cummings

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Written by Funky MeerKAT on 2006-06-04 02:29:58

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I always thought the point of dressage as a sport was to show where you are in your training and to get feedback for improvement. ie, you present to the judge and onlookers the way that you train your horse and how you are going.

But that is nolonger what happens, they train one way and show another. If their training is so good, why do they not show off what they can do in the ring? Why not make their own sport and be marked on what they are really doing?

Mind you the sport would very quickly be banned.

But the point is - they are hiding behind the rules and guidelines of dressage, those rules make dressage as a sport accepted, if the rules were changed to show what people are really doing, things would not be the same.

Hope that makes some sense, was hard to write what I meant and I don't know that I really did...

Disgrace ....

Written by Rhea on 2006-06-04 10:21:11

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Surly this, what they call ‘Dressage’ puts too much strain on the horses muscles?

Then why do it? It’s causing these poor horses pain just for your own satisfaction!

These horses should not be allowed to be put though this! They should put a stop to this why they are ahead….

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rolkur

Written by cherry on 2006-06-04 15:34:38

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This is wrong. These people are being rewarded for cruelty to their horses. I understood dressage came about from exercises designed to stretch, loosen and work horses corectly. This is the antithesis of everything that dressage should stand for.

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Dressage in the name of cruelty

Written by sandpiper on 2006-06-04 15:45:12

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These pictures sadden and disgust me. Who was it that decided this training method was the way forward - can someone explain to me why it is necessary? I have never seen horses moving naturally in this position. These beautiful creatures put their trust in us, the rider, and the least we can do for them is treat them with respect. I don't see any respect in these pictures while the poor horse has nowhere to go..

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Rollkur should be banned.

Written by becca3006 on 2006-06-04 19:23:13

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Rollkur goes agaisnt everything equestrianism is about. A real equestrain would see that these pictures display nothing but pure cruelty.

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when will the FEI wake up?

Written by rebel rach on 2006-06-04 21:15:07

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when will they get off their backsides and stop advocating this practise...makes me sick...

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Abomination

Written by ambatt on 2006-06-04 22:05:37

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This practice is simply vile, it is cruel, it is inhumane and it is the antitheses of everything I strive for in creating a partnership with my horses. It ranks along side 'rapping' in the showjuming fraternity as equine abuse.

The FEI should outlaw this practice and inflict the severest penalties for those utilising this method.

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Rollkur - Legal Cruelty

Written by chablis on 2006-06-05 03:30:13

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Words cannot truly describe such deliberate cruelty towards animals.

Animals who cannot stand up for themselves or say 'No'. Animals who become robots through forced and then learned helplessness.

Those people should be ashamed of themselves for putting those poor animals through such suffering and for what?! A silly ribbon or is it the money...

They have made dressage into a war where once it was an art. The horse and rider moving in perfect harmony. Through Rollkur (or what's the 'legal' for cruelty now?), people have achieved a way to shut a horse's personality and joy of life.

I find it incredibly hard to believe that a user of Rollkur then had their horse called a 'Happy Athlete'. I didn't realise that knashing horse teeth and the flashing whites of a horse, under extreme stress, was consider a 'Happy'.

I don't know how these people can sleept at night...

As inhumane as it gets

Written by rowjames on 2006-06-05 10:41:15

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Why would anyone WANT to reduce these noble and beautiful creatures to such a state?

Is there anything more pointless you can do to a horse?

Horses are athletes: They know how to move with grace and efficiency. Why cannot people learn how to ride without managing to ruin what nature has so miraculously provided?

Please, put a stop to this cruelty.

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Dressage

Written by Smudge on 2006-06-05 11:11:51

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The definition of Dressage according to the dictionary is:

The guiding of a horse through a series of complex maneuvers by slight movements of the rider's hands, legs, and weight.

This is bullying to cause submission resulting in pain for the horse. Its cruelty and it should not be allowed. How can anyone look at the strain on these horses faces and not be moved to outlaw this practise?

It disgusts me.

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If the boot was on the other foot...

Written by mellymoo on 2006-06-05 12:37:28

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Perhaps these riders should have their heads strapped down so they can't breathe and see where they're going, so that they get sore necks and backs.

Those horses look tortured. Dressage is supposed to be something of beauty, showing the partnership between human and horse - all those pictures show is human torturing and dominating horse.

Rollkur is cruel and unnesseccary -good riding will lead to a horse having a good outline and way of going. The riders who use Rollkur are evidently not fit to be on a horse. I count myself as a novice rider, but I can get my horse to go in an outline wearing a headcollar - he does it automatically because he is RIDDEN PROPERLY.

The FEI must stop this barbaric practice; it is surely a win-win situation if they do. The horses will be happier, and only the best riders will win - those who rely on cruelty and gadgets shouldn't be in the showring anyway, but if they stop getting placed (in fact they should be eliminated) they may think twice about the way they treat their horses.

I am truly disgusted that we in the Western world claim to love our animals, when this is what happens to them. Shame!!!!!

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:'( I hate rollkur!

Written by h4nz horse mad on 2006-06-05 19:07:13

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i hate it! absolutely hate it! you only have to look at the poor horses to see the pain in there eyes. lets strap the riders heads to their necks and make them work like that. no one would make a human do that would they! so why should we make these beautiful animals suffer. the FEI need to stop this! it surely must be torture! please stop it now... tears come to my eyes when i see the pain and helplessness in the horses eyes :'(

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This is not dressage.

Written by More Carrots Please on 2006-06-05 20:45:48

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Rollkur is abuse of the horse not a training method.

It's aim is to dominate and suppress the horses desires.

Judges should not reward this domination it is an example of a happy partnership.

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Amendment to my post above

Written by More Carrots Please on 2006-06-05 20:47:01

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Sorry typing not my best skill.

It is NOT!!!! an example of a happy partnership.

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Arrogant control freaks

Written by kahiggins on 2006-06-06 03:14:12

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In each and every photo the horses looks stressed and trapped. The eyes tell the story of pain and suffering. How can the horse possibly breathe, try it - put your chin on your chest and breathe, l am horrified these people should willigly inflict such cruelty on these beautiful horses. This surely is not dressage, where is the soft, flowing movement, the harmony between horse and rider. If this is the only way these people can control their horse then l suggest they give up riding altogether, it is not for them.

I feel so very sad, l have tears swelling up in my eyes.

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The truth is in the eyes

Written by ise@ssl on 2006-06-06 04:31:32

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It makes me ill to look at the eyes of these horses. They are glazed over and blank. How horrible that riders have taken the quest for ribbons to such extremes and have such a disconnect with the animal they use for this selfish quest.

We MUST stop this horrendous torture.

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Written by CaffreyM on 2006-06-06 14:59:32

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It's a long time since I have seen anything asdistressing as the pictures here.. my own horses are ridden and trained by classical riders who respect the spirit of the horse and never push them beyond their capabilities. If this is what it means to win dressage competitions, I want no part of it. I personally am going to write to each and every sponsor who supports a rider abusing horses in this fashion, to let them know that I will never be dealing with their company and products whilst this continues. Those who truly understand classical training would never subject a horse to such cruelty... there was a look of utter despair and hopelessness in those horses.... just what on earth are the FEI thinking to allow this.

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Written by kirster2 on 2006-06-06 16:02:07

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I am just utterly speechless. It brings me to tears to look at these horses faces and the pain that they are in. I could never do this to my horse. Just looking at the pictures I have a hard time breathing, just as I am sure those poor horses cant as well. This has to be stoped!

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This is not Dressage

Written by Tnavas on 2006-06-06 20:54:44

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I am apalled that the top riders will use this forced and uncomfortable outline on their beautiful horses. What do they believe they achieve?

Each horse is showing it's discomfort in it's eye, they way the mouth is open and lips drawn back the tongue protruding. Where is the softness and harmony of true classical dressage - certainly not in these pictures.

FEI get yourselves sorted and do not let these riders dictate what is NOT Classical dressage - listen to the majority - we want ROLLKUR BANNED!

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So Sad......this isn't Dressage

Written by Dark Secret on 2006-06-07 16:46:13

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I can't believe that the FEI doesn't do anything about this, they need to get some balls and have a voice for the horses, it brings tears to my eyes to see the horses being ridden like this. What is this sport coming to?

Please BAN ROLLKUR .......

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Barbaric Practice

Written by TJMoon on 2006-06-08 23:44:14

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SHAME!!! STOP THIS EVIL!!!

Horses tortured all in the name of glory, blue ribbons and money. Big lick horses, the western pleasure peanut rollers, competitive dressage; they are all the SAME!!!

The judges of this sport should be rollkured themselves!!!! STOP rewarding this abominable riding!!!

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Written by shoveltrash on 2006-06-10 01:04:32

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The cruel use of whips & spurs are considered *illegal* in dressage warmup.....ROLLKUR should be too!!!!! it just makes me want to cry - the horses look tortured. not to mention the fact that it reduces a beautiful historic equestrian sport into a PARODY....

i agree with TJMoon, the JUDGES who reward this should be rollkured!!!!!

null

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Equestrian Images, Dwain & Daniela

Written by Sanibelfan on 2006-06-10 01:12:04

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First of all, in the name of equine photography, our utmost respect to capture such images. Images that need no words to describe the pain and suffering these horses must endure. We have taken countless photos of horses, none of which display the amount of sadness and distress that we see in these horses' eyes. In the name of humanity, let's put an end to this incredible abuse.

Written by Lammont on 2006-06-10 02:42:54

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It took me four tries to get through all the photos, I couldn't really see through my tears. This is a travesty that MUST BE STOPPED.

If the FEI won't do it for all the obvious reasons, someone IS going to call the animal rights people and right now I am feeling that might not be such a bad thing.

The eyes of those poor horses makes my heart ache, and I really can't comprehend how they would not have that effect on everyone who views them. My sister - a nurse - looked at the colour of the horse's tongues and said it looked like the colour of "dead blood".

B]PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE STOP THIS NOW!!![/B]

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Written by bkoelzer on 2006-06-10 03:12:26

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This is a travesty and not in the true spirit of dressage. I cannot believe anyone who loves horses could believe rollkur is ok. As the other commentators have said -- all you need to do is look. The suffering is palpable. The FEI must prohibit rollkur. Now.

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Please Take Action!

Written by 1 morejump on 2006-06-10 04:42:50

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To whom it may concern At FEI Headquarters:

Please rethink your position on Rollkur. Right now the policy seems to be very "wishy washy". It is as though you are trying to please everyone with your answer. Stating that Rollkur is okay when used by professionals is very middle of the road. We need to be thinking about the horses!

I don't care how many mainstream riders you endorse. There comes a time when we have to say, enough! A horse would never willingly move like this for any extended period of time. There is no suppleness, yielding, or sense of partnership. All I can see are riders trying to over flex because they believe that it will make the horses more supple. It is plain out abuse! I don't care how professional you are, abuse is still abuse.

Please, Sir or Madam, take action, not for the people, or riders, but for the horses, the heart and soul of the sport. Dressage should be beauty in motion and nothing forced is ever beautiful, all rollkur is force. Please help us to fix this problem, for their sake, they have no voice.

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Dear Ulrike,

I admire your courage,passion and determination.
I am a veterinarian and think that Rollkur does not only represents
an insult to the nature of the noble horse but also, an appalling disrispect
for the law of biomechanics and equine physiology .
This said,in many equestrian activities,from racing to show
jumping ,the same types of nonsense are condoned.It hurts me to say
it,there will always be a small (I hope) portion of equine
scientists who choose to protect the human's interest over the
good of the horse.I want to hope ignorance plays a bigger role than
malice.
As in many things ,the mighty $$ rules :in the end ,boycotting
FEI,all events and membership could get their attention more
effectively than the fine arguments of century old wisdom.
Kindest regards and thanks,
Alex Bottesini Pullin D.V.M.

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Amateur dressage rider
Written by kharakterc on 2006-06-02 15:33:14

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It is a shame that the upper level riders are making this "acceptable". I do feel it is my responsibility not to ride my horse in this way. Certainly not to compliment or encourage others. It is not surprising that the FEI didn't just come right out and say that the practice of Rollkur is reprehensible.
This reminds me of a journey in my own life...Midwifery VS Obstetrics /Homebirth VS Institutional Birth. Same arguments used.
1. They are uneducated and don't understand what we do.
2. We can guarantee safety (winning?)
3. The hospitals protect the OB's they bring the $$$ (judges standing by...they are invited by the show/riders)
So many parallels and so disturbing.
Will continue to do what I view as right. Even if the Popular/successful crowd chooses rollkur.
If something is not done. The beauty of dressage will be destroyed. The "purist" will not be able to compete successfully..............It is a shame that this beautiful sport and the beautiful animals are being ruined.

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I thought we were supposed to be a civil
Written by looby on 2006-06-03 11:27:57

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It is with mixed horror and admiration that I read the June issue of Horses For LIfe. Horror at the images and articles contained within, but admiration for the editing team and their contributors. It takes great courage to stand up and disagree with convention and I for one am overjoyed and proud that there are still people in the equestrian world with that courage and strength to say out loud when something is wrong. And oh is this wrong! The practice of Rollkur is so far removed from the principles of dressage and horse training, and yet it had become the accepted norm among winning riders and trainers. To dismiss the classicists as out of date and irrelevant is short sighted and arrogant. While resorting to heavy handed domination of their horses displays a lack of character and an inhumane disregard for their honest and willing equine parnters in the sport. We should all be speaking out, loudly and repeatedly, against this barbaric training method to get it regarded with the same disgust and damnation as other forms of animal cruelty. It ranks for me with bear baiting, cock fighting, dog fighting, the list goes on. It is a sick and selfish world that sees the pain and suffering of an animal as an acceptable means to winning prizes. If this is dressage, I shall confine myself to just hacking out forever more. Congratulations on your wonderful magazine, and thank you for your courage, Lucinda Evans

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Anne Quaye
Written by manxie on 2006-06-10 10:21:25

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have been arguing for years over the use of double bridles ect for dressage. I argued surely the whole point of dressage is showing how well schooled and balanced you and your horse are as a team. I have ridden my horse a standard bred who likes nothing more than to go faster in a english hackamore for years. To prove a point I also rode in a head collar and bareback. Then I said why can't we compete like this? Why do we have to have bits at all if our horse is happier bitless? Why not add a bitless class or a minimal tack class and let the evidense prove it self?

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"Classical" Dressage?
Written by indymom on 2006-06-12 16:03:52

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I am an armature dressage rider, having started dressage instruction as a novice rider in the late 1970s. Then, "Classical Dressage" WAS dressage - there was no such thing as "NON-Classical Dressage" - what an oxymoron. Then, showing was considered just a way to check your training under expert eyes.

Though only a low level rider, I rode in clinics with some of the dressage elite. Names like England's Molly Sivewright may not be familiar now - she was retired from active competition even then - but at the time she was a world class rider/instructor.

For those still interested in the Classical methods, her many books, among them, Thinking Riding are highly recommended. Unfortunately, it appears that not much "thinking" - as she defined it - is going on in too many dressage arenas these days.

I've since moved away from my former instructor who would NEVER have taught anything but Classical Dressage with what she used to call "Equestrian Tact."

What in the WORLD has happened! Far from being a means to an end, showing, and WINNING, has become an end in itself, and all thought of correct development of the horse is lost in the win-at-any-cost atmosphere. Any thought of the horse AT ALL has been lost.

It all just makes me sick and sad and mad. I could NEVER treat my beloved horse this way. I would give up dressage completely before I would even think of such a thing.

If we allow these people to intimidate us just because they are winning, we have failed the horses just as badly as they have.

Suzanne Moore

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Let the Horses Speak
Written by JBJ on 2006-06-10 23:26:19

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Rollkur is cruel, sad, and downright disgusting . These so called "riders" don't deserve their "good" reputation! Especially the "riders" who make it to the Olympics! And now the judges are starting to accept it! It is horrid! What will the horse world be like in 5 years? It will be sad, unless something is done for the horses . I know one thing: I won't ride my horse like those so called "riders" just for a $0.10 ribbon and a "reputation"! Maybe one-day we will be able to stop this horrible cruelty to our such majestic friends, our horses.

HORRIBLE!
Written by jdolan on 2006-06-11 00:37:05

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Have these pictures been sent to the riders of these horses? How can there be any debate over such an abusive practice? Anatomically, I do not understand how the horse can breathe adequately. Maybe we need to tie these riders' necks down to their chests and have them ride their horses in a similar position that they force upon their mounts. FEI---where are you?

DISGUSTING
Written by lil foxy roxy on 2006-06-11 13:07:29

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I couldn't look at all those pictures, they made me feel SICK!
those poor poor horses!
those riders call themselves "top riders"!?!?!?! "top idiots" more like.

how can judges just let them get away with it? horses can't be forced into those positions! i can only imagine how much it must hurt their necks and they will be stuck with it

Why???
Written by patkempe@btinternet.com on 2006-06-12 08:46:57

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I feel myself crying WHY should these horses be forced into this outline. WHY??

Where is their nobility, pride and friendship? Certainly not shon in these pictures of torment.

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Dear Dr. Thiel:
Have suggested to Nadja King at Horses For LIFE that a series of alternatives to rollkur be done. It would seem the FEI is resistant to altering its position. Perhaps detailed alternatives in the classical tradition will eventually erode support of this technique.

My Atlas, with details of how rollkur can be avoided by substitution of basic classical riding (illustrated) is now available at
http://www.zipedu.com/Dressage.html

Sincerely, Nancy Nicholson

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jennifer Wright

Rider

Cruetly - no doubt. Why don't these equestrians remove the nosebands and chains and ride? Is it because they won't be able to control thier mount, because they won't win, becaue it will take too much time to train? Two hundred years ago horses suffered through tight overchecks in driving for high headed results. Seems that the pendulum has now swung the other way. I am sorr y to now see it in the derssage areana. I would love to x-ray these dressage horses mouths and necks. Seems to me they will have bone spurs between their vertebrae and on the abrs of their mouths. How many vets are inspecting dressage horse jaws for signs of tissue damage? What is very disappointing is that the trainers and riders are unable or unwilling to view their training as cruel, just like so many in the "prancing horse industry (Walkers, Saddlebreds, etc.). Jennifer Wright Arizona

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Liebe Frau Dr. Thiel,

Haben Sie vielen Dank für Ihr e-mail, das Sie an die neue FEI Präsidentin, HKH Haya Bint al Hussein geschickt haben.

Es macht mich sehr glücklich, daß Sie sich so sehr für das Wohlergehen unserer Pferde einsetzen.

Machen Sie weiter so; unsere Pferde und alle Anhänger der klassischen und humanen Reiterei sind Ihnen zu großem Dank verpflichtet.

Mit besten Grüßen

Ihr Walter A. Zettl

P.S. Ich habe mir erlaubt, Ihr e-mail an Herrn von Ziegner weiterzuleiten. Er wird es an die Präsidentin der Xenophon Gesellschaft, Frau Stückelberger schicken.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sound very much to me like the words of someone paying
lip service to the idea but in reality practicing
something very different.

Anky must has a double who warms up her horses before
competion using a different method than the one that
she teaches at clinics.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Ulrike,

I find this all really fascinating, that people can be so deluded and not know. It seems similar to anorexia nervosa where people are completely convinced by something that is quite wrong. Amazing. Anyway, on a different subject, attached is the original paper from my horse vision research. It is not the best quality as I have scanned it in, buy it is readable I think.

Regards,

Alison

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Ulrike,

I have received both sets of DVD's today.

I have started to watch them and am amazed at how the warm up sessions are being conducted. Absolutely shocking.

Thank you for putting all this together for all of us to se.

Kind regards

Judy in Oz

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am in tears
Written by dvnEquine on 2006-06-13 01:51:26

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How could anyone think that this is "just another training method"??? Perhaps the stretch itself is not horrifying enough, but the pulling of the head to the chest - the waterskiing on the reins (you have only to look at their legs and knees to know that those riders are HAULING on those reins), the spurring as the head is held in tight.

The FEI must STOP this. It is nothing but a gross caricature of dressage.

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Apalling!
Written by tollertwins on 2006-06-13 02:11:30

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Seeing so MANY horses ridden this way was a total shock!
I have a trainer who is also an FEI judge. I have seen her do this type of riding exactly once - when the horse she was riding for it's owner was basically trying to hurt her. She only did it long enough for the horse to start behaving - and she DIDN"T switch gaits, work on bend or anything - just on getting the horse to behave. Also told the owner that it was NOT something to do. I had assumed from this that the discussions about Rolkur may have been something that was done on recalcitrant horses - NOT something done as a standard warm-up.

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vile abomination of the sport
Written by looby on 2006-06-13 14:26:41

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is with mixed horror and admiration that I read the June issue of Horses For LIfe. Horror at the images and articles contained within, but admiration for the editing team and their contributors. It takes great courage to stand up and disagree with convention and I for one am overjoyed and proud that there are still people in the equestrian world with that courage and strength to say out loud when something is wrong. And oh is this wrong! The practice of Rollkur is so far removed from the principles of dressage and horse training, and yet it had become the accepted norm among winning riders and trainers. To dismiss the classicists as out of date and irrelevant is short sighted and arrogant. While resorting to heavy handed domination of their horses displays a lack of character and an inhumane disregard for their honest and willing equine parnters in the sport. We should all be speaking out, loudly and repeatedly, against this barbaric training method to get it regarded with the same disgust and damnation as other forms of animal cruelty. It ranks for me with bear baiting, cock fighting, dog fighting, the list goes on. It is a sick and selfish world that sees the pain and suffering of an animal as an acceptable means to winning prizes. If this is dressage, I shall confine myself to just hacking out forever more. Congratulations on your wonderful magazine, and thank you for your courage, Lucinda Evans

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Who is the FEI trying to please with thi
Written by veepee on 2006-06-14 13:30:03

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The FEI does not have the power to stop this horrible way of riding horses in warm up areas at competition....yet...until rules are put in place to eliminate this horrible way of riding in them. Until then, it is up to the judges of dressage competition horses to ensure that their judging follows closely the FEI guidelines of correct frame or outline being shown by horses being able to work in self-carriage with poll high and nose in front of vertical, with mouths closed - as per official FEI rulings [if these are still relevant guidelines for judges in the FEI rule book? - and if not, why not?]. This is not about perfection…but about riding horses in the way that they are meant to be naturally using themselves.

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The crux of the issue
Written by Ann on 2006-06-14 15:34:05

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The bottom line to rollkur - and all abusive training techniques in all equine disciplines - is that somehow, for some reason, the physical expression of tension and anxiety in the horse has become more than accepted - it has become the standard. Riders, trainers, and even judges have become unable to see the tension and anxiety that underlies the extravagant movement it causes. Fluid harmonious motion is not as flamboyant as that caused by tension/anxiety. If we don't reverse this trend now, the day will come when there are no longer riders or trainers who are able see the beauty of harmony and tranquility within the performing horse.
Ann Bradley

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Ghastly
Written by Jane on 2006-06-15 23:47:33

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rollkur is ghastly. Look at the dead eyes of the horses on whom it is used to verify they know it too.

Please investigate and end this attack on honorable sequential training.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Dr. Thiel:
Have suggested to Nadja King at Horses For LIFE that a series of alternatives to rollkur be done. It would seem the FEI is resistant to altering its position. Perhaps detailed alternatives in the classical tradition will eventually erode support of this technique.

My Atlas, with details of how rollkur can be avoided by substitution of basic classical riding (illustrated) is now available at
http://www.zipedu.com/Dressage.html

Sincerely, Nancy Nicholson

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rider

Cruetly - no doubt. Why don't these equestrians remove the nosebands and chains and ride? Is it because they won't be able to control thier mount, because they won't win, becaue it will take too much time to train? Two hundred years ago horses suffered through tight overchecks in driving for high headed results. Seems that the pendulum has now swung the other way. I am sorr y to now see it in the derssage areana. I would love to x-ray these dressage horses mouths and necks. Seems to me they will have bone spurs between their vertebrae and on the abrs of their mouths. How many vets are inspecting dressage horse jaws for signs of tissue damage? What is very disappointing is that the trainers and riders are unable or unwilling to view their training as cruel, just like so many in the "prancing horse industry (Walkers, Saddlebreds, etc.). Jennifer Wright Arizona

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Liebe Frau Dr. Thiel,

Haben Sie vielen Dank für Ihr e-mail, das Sie an die neue FEI Präsidentin, HKH Haya Bint al Hussein geschickt haben.

Es macht mich sehr glücklich, daß Sie sich so sehr für das Wohlergehen unserer Pferde einsetzen.

Machen Sie weiter so; unsere Pferde und alle Anhänger der klassischen und humanen Reiterei sind Ihnen zu großem Dank verpflichtet.

Mit besten Grüßen

Ihr Walter A. Zettl

P.S. Ich habe mir erlaubt, Ihr e-mail an Herrn von Ziegner weiterzuleiten. Er wird es an die Präsidentin der Xenophon Gesellschaft, Frau Stückelberger schicken.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sound very much to me like the words of someone paying
lip service to the idea but in reality practicing
something very different.

Anky must has a double who warms up her horses before
competion using a different method than the one that
she teaches at clinics.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Ulrike,

I find this all really fascinating, that people can be so deluded and not know. It seems similar to anorexia nervosa where people are completely convinced by something that is quite wrong. Amazing. Anyway, on a different subject, attached is the original paper from my horse vision research. It is not the best quality as I have scanned it in, buy it is readable I think.

Regards,

Alison

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Ulrike,

I have received both sets of DVD's today.

I have started to watch them and am amazed at how the warm up sessions are being conducted. Absolutely shocking.

Thank you for putting all this together for all of us to se.

Kind regards

Judy in Oz

20 6 2006

I've seen Dr. Ulrike's DVD's of rollkur. The horses look like front
heavy teeter-totters from poll to tail with the withers as the
fulcrum. The horses look like they are using their heads and necks as
levers to pull the haunches up, giving the horses an appearance of
tippy-toeing behind. Even on the occasions where the haunches are
somewhat bent, they don't appear to be carrying a significant amount
of weight.

Dausand

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:13 pm (PST)

What strikes me in the video clips is that the horses have been totally
stripped of their natural grace. Their movements lack fluidity and
coordination...they look spastic and jerky. I really cannot see how this is possibly able to
win, much less consistently...

Hansen

Mon Jun 19, 2006 12:14 am (PST)

can I ask please. who has seen the DVD's made by Ulrike thiel?
I have and I am absolutely blown away at the time span these people
are doing rollkuer. No transitions, just blatant rollkuer, abuse by
hands and spurs.I knew that they were doing rollkuer, but when you
actually watch these videos..............and then you know it is
ACTUAL time....sickening.

Judy in Oz

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Mon Jun 19, 2006 12:53 am (PST)

Unfortunately, just because the horses placing highly "are" being placed
highly, does not mean that they are going correctly - unfortunately the
"WOW" factor is far important than correct riding - and wealth,
celebrity status helps too!
I only hope that Klaus Balkenhol and "Xenophon" are strong and dilligent
enough to help change the way judges are looking at the horse and rider
combinations in front of them - so that correct classical training is
valued above all else.

Maarit

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think this is precisely it, the judges are accustomed to anxiety
and tension, hence the whow factor when you see those competitors do
extensions , everyone just about is blown away, so the judges are no
different. the rules have not changed ...but the mental image has,
because almost no one will have a horse at high level moving the
right way .
Judy in oz

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:06 am (PST)

Well, I will go as far as saying that to me, the WOW factor is not
there. I say WOW when I see a well ridden happy horse with a happy rider
on top, both in harmony with each other.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Barbara

Mon Jun 19, 2006 7:59 am (PST)

My wow factor is also the horse moving nicely , pushing from behind
with ease .Horse and rider a happy combination, we all know what that
should look like, why don't the judges??

Sadly the wow factor is mostly high stepping , electric horses ,
strutting their stuff.

Judy in Oz

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mon Jun 19, 2006 10:55 pm (PST)

---I wondering if the supposed benefits of using the roll kur--
basically comes down to:

if you keep the horse in a tense/awkward position
... it then...
will be relieved and perform better once you return to correct
position

--kind of an unfortunate application/interpretation of, say,
collecting on the short end of the arena and then taking a diagonal
with that built up energy--released in to a lengthening. Collecting
in preparation for release into extension is a common
natural/effective excercise. High degrees of collection or any
strenuous work is -traditionally--- kept brief and followed imediatly
followed by some kind of release/reward/relaxation------over time you
build stamina to be able to perform challenging programs.

I just really think it's unfortunate the "champions of the rollkur"
do not pause to think if it is realy the position of the rollkur that
gives them results----or that maybe the horse performs tests well
afterwards because it finds itself so "relieved" and "comfortable" in
the correct classical position and movements demanded in the
tests??????

Just my thoughts -L

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:50 am (PST)

Good learning material I think.
Judy in z

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've seen Dr. Ulrike's DVD's of rollkur. The horses look like front
heavy teeter-totters from poll to tail with the withers as the
fulcrum. The horses look like they are using their heads and necks as
levers to pull the haunches up, giving the horses an appearance of
tippy-toeing behind. Even on the occasions where the haunches are
somewhat bent, they don't appear to be carrying a significant amount
of weight.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:51 am (PST)

I'm not sure the concept of "linear progress" can be applied to any human/animal training endeavor, except maybe by charting things in retrospect. It seems to me to go in fits and starts, with a moment of splendid success followed by an utter failure to connect. "Huh?" is a human word that horses can just about pronounce, and they certainly are able to convey the idea, even if they don't make the sound. (g)
if you keep the horse in a tense/awkward position
... it then...will be relieved and perform better once you return to correct
position
I think you make a good point. I read an article years ago that measured
anxiety levels in horses in both training and showing scenarios. What they
found was most horses were much calmer when actually showing, and their tension
was greatest in training. That information was interpreted 2 ways. One
group - mainly the trainers - thought the fact that their horses were showing
well meant their training was good. But the other group interpreted it to mean
the horses had learned that the show ring was a "safe place", so they could
actually relax and enjoy showing. I wondered if this phenomenon was somehow
tied in with the group that rated Anky's horse as the "happiest" horse?
Either that, or they wouldn't know a happy horse if it bit 'em in the butt... Bloos

)
Ann

Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:12 pm (PST)

"if you keep the horse in a tense/awkward position
... it then...
will be relieved and perform better once you return to correct
position"

I don't believe the horse "ever" get the "correct" position for more
that a millisecond- the back is usually hollow with croup high, third
vertebrae being the highest point with back legs lifting like they had
electric prods - with no real engagement - anyway thats what I see.
Maarit

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dr. Thiel,

I've been watching your Rollkur videos, and I would like to know if you would mind my posting a few links to said videos (with your credit) along with a petition that I am drafting? The purpose of the petition is to draw attention to the abuse of this practice (if you would like to call it a practice at all) and the damage it does to the outlook of the horses. The goal is ultimately to present this petition along with the information contained in your videos and a few other select websites to the United States Equestrian Foundation (USAE), United States Dressage Federation (USDF), and the FEI as evidence that this topic needs to be further explored and stopped.

Please get back to me as soon as you can,
Thank you!
Jamie A. Stine

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Ulrike,

I received a phone call from Alex Atock M.R.C.V.S.
Secretary
FEI Welfare Subcommittee.

He requested 8 copies of your DVD after reading a mail

I sent to the FEI. He has been given the job to look into

things... I cannot be more pleased that the work you have

done is now rewarded by people in the veterinary profession,

linked with the FEI who seem to also understand that the

welfare of horses is at stake.

I will send him the copies requested as soon as the local computer shop can make them.

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Thank you so much for putting this information out there.

I am a dressage instructor in Phoenix AZ and have trained in Germany for 2 years. I learned many things over the years I have studied dressage, but the two that most apparently address this training method are 1)you must consistently train your horse as you will ride him in competition, and 2)in dressage, if it doesn't look right, it isn't. I recently responded to an inquiry from one of my students:

"Hyperflexion is an extreme over flexion of the vertebrae in the neck, either down, to the right or to the left. It's supposed benefits are to supple the horse, however when it has been brought to its proponents attention that it is actually creating a balance which is decidedly opposite of that we are trying to create in dressage (we like to encourage the horse to bear more weight on his hindquarters as opposed to allowing, or in this case forcing, the horse to fall on the forehand) it was then said by the users of hyperflexion that this was a means of dealing with submission issues. And it would, as it creates a situation where the horse is out of balance and not allowed to see ahead of him because of his optical anatomy. The horse then becomes submissive because of his fear, and thus tense.....which is also something we are ultimately trying NOT to create in a dressage mount. So, you see why the 'classisists' might be down on it. I am, as what I have seen of it goes against everything I have been taught about dressage."

After seeing these video clips, it appears that I only scratched the surface in my response to my student. I have a difficult time visualizing how a less experienced rider than the ones that you have featured could possibly create more discomfort or throw his mount more off balance. I will be having all of my students review the videos you have posted on You Tube.

With Regards,
Justine Wilson

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Abuse of body and soul
Written by Janna on 2006-06-19 09:38:07

Dressage is meant to show the pride, grace and elegance of a horse.
Well trained, happy and sound.

These horses have in no way at all, anything to do with that.

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Incorrect
Written by bseizert on 2006-06-19 23:59:50

Not only are these methods obviously cruel and insensitive to the horses, they go against several of the most basic and important aspects of dressage: harmony, balance, impulsion, engagement, and self-carriage. No one can claim to be a "top rider" while disregarding these most important characteristics of dressage.

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BAN ROLKUR
Written by sallison627 on 2006-06-23 00:25:58

I am sick to my stomach after viewing those photos. The object of dressage should be the harmoniousphysical development and ability of the horse. This technique is horrifying!
Shame on the FEI for rewarding top riders who use this technique. Many of these photos were obviously taken in the warm-up arena for all to see. (judges as well) It's time to ban this from our sport and penalize all riders/trainers who are seen using it!

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Please stop this ugly horror!
Written by lil on 2006-06-23 01:03:07

FEI,
Please take a GOOD look at this practice. Ban it and its practitioners
from the ring and the whole of what I once thought a lovely riding technique, that honored both horse and rider.

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Set a good example
Written by carol ann on 2006-06-23 02:02:38

Young riders who look up to the international competitors as an example of the best in dressage are being sent a dangerous message. How are young riders to learn true dressage when this is the sorry example that is presented to them? Let's quit makeing excuses , and glossing over the true nature of this horror. The FEI is loseing it's credibility by sanctioning such an obvious act of brutality.

Set a good example
Written by carol ann on 2006-06-23 02:02:38

Young riders who look up to the international competitors as an example of the best in dressage are being sent a dangerous message. How are young riders to learn true dressage when this is the sorry example that is presented to them? Let's quit making excuses , and glossing over the true nature of this horror. The FEI is loosing it's credibility by sanctioning such an obvious act of brutality.

Changes can only be made successfully at grass roots level, so
> education the mere mortals is the thing to do.

While I undestand where you are coming from,
I have another idea. I think that the top people
are as much in trouble than the grass roots riders
and that they have to be made aware that one is
watching.... and not kidded by their techniques.

To let them get away with bad and nasty training
techniques because one is too busy concentrating
on helping the lower level is not good enough.

A efficient and professional rider does much
much more harm as his efficiency also is able
to really destroy the horse in his integrity.

Ignorant people tends to have bad hands and
move them around etc, and these for example
are not as nasty as an efficient, horrific and
consciously destructive hands.

I again think and feel that all of you have to write
to the FEI instead of writing to each others about
the Rollkur. This is the only thing to do: Tell them.

www.horsesport.org

Hundred of thousands letters will influence them
and there is work to do. This is only a start.
Catherine

I think one problem with effecting change at the grass roots

level while professionals are brutalizing their horses is

that a lot of people get into horses without realizing that

what they are doing is abuse! They have no where to look but

to the professionals that teach them most of the time(let's

face it, not everyone is well read or is going to read the

books BEFORE learning to ride)so I think a lot of people

really do believe that the abuse they see is how it's done!

Many also judge their "success" in riding in the showring-if

they win, they must be doing it "right"! Well, if correct

doesn't win, how does one convince them to BE correct? What

they see win is what they will want to emulate, whether that

horse is moving correctly or not.

Lynn Stacey

Director of Reference Services

Baker College Library of Flint

810-766-4240

__________________________________________________________________________

more thoughts on this troubling issue...

I think unfortunately there has always been a struggle (lord of the
rings style Knipoog

between the classical horsemanship of Xenophon ---as
interpretted by Pluvinel and his pupil de la Gueriniere ( which is
what the teaching of the Spanish riding school adhere's to) AS
OPPOSED TO the methods of Grisone and Pignatelli (actually Pluvinel's
teacher)Grisone and Pignatelli are noted for the force and cruel bits
they used. More contemporary are Baucher and Fillis who are noted as
brilliant horseman, but, depending on your sentiments--faulted for
their promotion of unnatural gaits/movement and overbending their
horses. Then also you have friction/differing opinions on
principles/correctness between say, The Spanish Riding School and the
Cadre Noir of Saumur. I doubt there will ever be complete agreement---
we just have to trust within ourselves what is "right" for our horses
and hope that "truth" and "right" will lead those that are open to
it----to a mutually beneficial and harmonious relationship with the
horse.

Alois Podhajsky in "Complete Training of the Horse and Rider" begins
the book with a chapter titled "Review and Principles of Riding" in
which he offers the following quotes of Simon of Athens-(predecessor
of Xenophon whose writings are lost but quoted by Xenophon) and also
Xenophon:

Simon of Athens : "If a dancer was forced to dance by whip and
spikes, he would be no more beautiful than a horse trained under
similar conditions"

Xenophon: "Anything forced and misunderstood can never be beautiful"

Classical Horsemanship is an art. In our training we strive to
advance, learn more subtle technique, execute more difficult
movements--basically, attain some mastery of the "art" This is a hard
task. Hard tasks challenge the ego repeatedly----and in this lies,
perhaps, the hardest lesson -------giving up our ego. If we pursue
this art for the spiritual enrichment and communication with the
horse-----we will never fail. If we pursue a burning desire to make
it to a certain show--or make a certain horse do a perfect piaffe----
or impress the neighbours-------then we may set yourself up for failure
and detriment to our harmony with the horse. IT"S ABOUT THE JOURNEY,
NOT THE DESTINATION

There is nothing that enhances the natural grace and movement of the horse with rider with this method.

A careful re-reading (or first reading!) of Podhajsky's books is necessary to all who practice and condone RK.

Personally I'm not a huge fan of books on riding and training horses, believing that these are practical skills that cannot be taught or learnt from reading books. There is no doubt however that Alois Podhajsky contributed immensely to saving the Spanish Riding School horses when they were threatened during the war and that as Director of that establishment he had immense practical knowledge and experience of bringing on top level classical dressage horses.

For books though, I personally look further back and frequently refer to my 'bible' published in 1878 and not exactly light reading "Classical Equitation and horsemanship"

Read that and you will be as cynical as I am whenever some idiot tells you about the new training techniques espoused by modern table top books!

I am Swedish - as is she. I think the Austrian remark refers to Ulrike Thiel of www.hippocampus-nl.com , she lives in Holland. And is a really courageous woman.

The important thing is not nationality. That means nothing to a horse. When you see the pictures and films of what is going on in the name of Dressage, something in you - as a human - reacts - or not.

Classical riding is about acquiring the knowledge to tune into the horse so that his natural grandeur and abilities are freed up and maximised. This has got nothing to do with that whatsoever! Those who seek to explain the videos are merely making excuses for disgusting riding and horsemanship - whether its a caputured moment in time or for excessive periods.

"My non-horsey friend watched these videos with me and he was wondering why the horse just takes this abuse and not buck off the rider? In some of the videos, you can see the horse clearly trying to escape the pressure but why doesn't the horse just throw the rider off?"

Can't -- getting spurred from behind. Not allowed any room at all to drop head (need to drop head to buck). Horse is just compressed together.

I have taught classical riding and classical dressage for over 30 years and whilst many labour under the illusion that this technique is something to do with dressage, in my professional view rollkur is riding at its worst.

Classical riding is about acquiring the knowledge to tune into the horse so that his natural grandeur and abilities are freed up and maximised. This has got nothing to do with that whatsoever! Those who seek to explain the videos are merely making excuses for disgusting riding and horsemanship - whether its a caputured moment in time or for excessive periods.

This forced and incorrect way of riding will impair the horse's movement and athletic ability and can do much damage both physically and mentally. Practised over a period of time, it generally leads to unsoundness and back pain for the horse.

It places immeasurable strain on joints, muscles and ligaments. A rigid insistence on fixing/forcing a false outline from an early age, plays havoc with the horse's back and central nervous system.

Too often this sort of work results in quantities of confused, damaged and stressed horses, those that become hysterical and dangerous, being quickly sidelined. It's the few brave survivors, who by their stoicism do the greatest damage to their fellows, for it is they who unwittingly have to fly the flag for the latest fad and fashion. "You see my trainer's method really works!" boasts the winning owner, blithely ignoring the consequences on their horse and all the associated problems that go with it.

I'm sick to death of reading about rollkur and how its a fantastic dressage method applied by brilliant winning riders and so must be correct and I'm sick to death of reading why dressage horses can't go out in fields in herds and why they are unpredictable and bad mannered because they are a high level competition horse.

Its bad for horses, its bad for dressage and its time it was outed and its time that there were some half decent judges knocking such appalling riding down to the level it belongs!

And as a post script I've got to say that if Anky van Grunsven ever got on a horse of mine and rode like that I'd drag her off aside from the hyperflexion - her use of hands and curb are appalling and her use of stirrups is horrific - clearly she has a horse that must be so troubled that it has switched off totally to what I can only descirbe as horrendous abuse and chronic torture. I would like to think that if I didn't drag her off a horse of mine quick enough, that it would quickly dump her!

What are we talking about now, warm-up methods shown despite the closed door secrecy? Is that the method that undermines the anti rk argument? Quite frankly, if a team represents a

country, people of that country have a right to see what's going on. And if my dollars go to support the FEI, and they do, then I have a right to know what's going on and exactly what I am

supporting (or contributing to) with my dollars.

Are we really saying that photojournalism (more precisely videojournalism, but that probably isn't even a word) is not a good thing?

I watched the video(s) OK. Blank Slate

I am sincerely trying to understand. Would anyone like to explain to this poor ex-H/J princess

video #5

1.) This is a video of RK being done by "educated" hands or an example of "Good RK"?

2.) Exactly what is the rider trying to achieve in this warm-up?

To my (uneducated) eye the horse seems to be unbalanced thru the corners...sort of leaning in? Is that because of the extreme btv positioning? Or is that being done for some purpose?

Also, much of the canter work seems to be unbalanced???

I am sincerely trying to understand...so could someone help me out here?

Perhaps I am just looking at it from a Hunter perspective and this IS correct dressage work?

Thanks!

I remember several comments along the nature of: "rollkur can't be judged based on photographs because pictures capture but a moment of time.".

Huh. The giant sucking noise I hear is that argument being flushed down the toilet. Rollkur looks just as horrific on video, especially when 5 straight minutes of video go by where the horse is

not once released from the position of rollkur.

Lisa Cook

Well that sure shoots the whole "a picture is only a moment in time" argument in the ass doesn't it? The horse goes around and around without being released from that horrible position. It's

disgusting. If that is what Miss Anky calls riding, or dressage, then she can take her medals and stuff up where the sun don't shine. I have absolutely no respect for the woman if this is how

she abuses horses in the name of dressage. Disgusting.

Where's that PUKE icon??????

I sound like a broken record. You of the Rollkur camp think those videos are pretty?? Is that what Dressage is all about??

I sent them to my S judge trainer and she was sickened. She again has said, the Judges are partially to blame, They know what’s going on they are rewarding the results.

Rollkur is disgusting and I would never let someone who trains that way ANYWHERE near my horses! I also wouldn't let anyone who DEFENDS these un-riders near my horses. It's not that I'm

picky or overprotective. It's that the type of person who sees ANYTHING positive in rollkur is a MENACE.

So, the person who filmed warmups at Aachen 25 years ago had a vendetta against Uphoff???? Gimme a break! Its documentation of WHAT IS BEING DONE, repeatedly. It was in the

background with five horses when Anky did her interview about the death of the jr yg rider horse on dutch tv (her choice of backgrounds), it is done by the (then) 12 yr old son (an expert I

presume too) for another interview, and it is done for hours in warm ups.

IF they are pround of being able to use the method, then why not show it to the world? Whats the problem, except that SJ wants to make $$ off her image. The only time the horse is released is when the horse stays down, otherwise its spurred down again. A finished gp horse should work on the hint of aids, great applications shouldnt be necessary. What is most interesting for me, is the body postures of those watching which were/are the same 25 years ago watching Uphoff at Aachen or

today....crossed arms and partially turned bodies and looking down alot. Sorta says how many disagree without saying it.

I just went back and watched the 5th Video again, and your right about the folks standing around. Almost ashamed, or stunned surprise..And someone one said that the other horses were doing it. no not all. There a bright chestnut in there that is doing lovely work NON Rollkur!

HECK no, this is NOT correct dressage work. The horse does appear quite unbalanced. However, I am not going to take part in the Zwangsjacke debate, largely because I have had no

experience with it myself, and thus am not qualified to debate pros/cons/results et cetera.

I will say this: no horse of mine, or any horse ever in training with me, will be subjected to this. I find it sickening.

Caroline Weber

, " dessage makes the horses more beautiful "" can dfinitely NOT be said about these poor horses these o . I found it interesting that when after f

she puts her hand forward to pat him on the h neck,the horse never even seeks to lengthen his neck. you suppose that these horses can even do that? THe one big bayhorse is so uneven

behind in medium trot that what that gait is supposed to be? He should be considered borderline lame", and examined by the show vet. His movement is similar to horse s with string halt.

Carol Ames

Who cares if it is abuse? It's a moot point. What is certain is that the video displays TERRIBLE horsemanship from a true know-nothing. If you approve of that kind of "riding," please let me know

so I can put you on my blacklist!

Aptor Hours, it is debatable whether it is abuse or not.

What it *is* is *very* incorrect. If I saw any one of my students with their horse's head behind the vertical, bending them with no release, no stretch, and kicking them from behind, I'd yank them

off their horse so fast their head would spin.

I did see the lovely chestnut who appeared to be doing correct work off of a soft rein. There were two(?) other bays who were both in rk though. And my point to that was simply - it's not a

vendetta against anky. Who gives a rats patootie who it is that is riding like this - it's just incorrect at the least, and abusive at worst.

Doesn't matter this is warm up/schooling. She rides 'correctly' in the test and marked very highly for it. Cross training is a legitimate aspect of sports training.

Um - okay - so is it okay for me to pole my jumper in the warmup ring as long as I ride "correctly' in competition?

Does that make sense? I don't think so - and neither does the USEF.

_

What difference does it make that this is schooling? I guess if you only care about ribbons, what goes on outside of the show ring doesn't matter. But you're not one of those people, are you?

And I don't see how you can call this cross training. If you want real cross-training, why don't we see her hack her horses (WITHOUT draw reins), jump them, teach them to drive, do western,

etc. This rollkur crap is more like un-training than anything...

When a creature doesn't know life can be different, it's easy to persuade him that what they have is the way it should be.

My uneducated eye saw the rider very tense in the shoulder and 'pulling' -- my computer is sloooow too so we saw it in 2sec intervals-- horse swishing their tails yet being obedient.

I can't wait to see Rollkur added to 2nd level movements because it's a 'training' aid -- just like we use the 'stretchy circle' in the trot to show the horse seeking contact. Rollkur is just riding in

draw reins without the draw reins, all the time... every ride. It's not training, it's a gadget.

It won't be long until this trickles down to first and training level because "oh,*insert name here* does Rollkur blah blah blah, i'm only doing training but RK will make me win. " To nip this in the

bud, any horse going EVEN SLIGHTLY behind the vertical should become a 5point deduction from that specific movement in a show. Maybe that would be incentive not to school BTV, no

matter how you sugar coat it, that's all RK is.

Forget if its cruel or not, it is NOT what Dressage is about

Guys, trust the people who ride dressage, this is absolutely not okay. I believed that people were catching Anky in 'moments of time' until I just saw these videos. This is not the way dressage horses are to be trained. I believe in the training scale, because it is effective and takes into account the well being of the horse.

I actually feel embarrassed for her. These video's are very shameful, and a lot of people who believe in her are going to be very disturbed by seeing this.

I don't know if this will be banned but it definitely should be. I gave Anky the benefit of the doubt, but after seeing this, I really think this is extremely wrong

Think about your own riding, and what you ask of your horse in dressage - because I don't care what the dressage only folks think - eventers do lovely correct dressage work even though their horses don't have a brand on their butts.

One of the accusations that has been made is that these horses have become so contorted - so pulled in through the use of excessive force on the curb - the result is a parody of correct work. There is no real balance, there is no harmony - and most of all - the horse is extremely tense. And since the judges reward it with high marks.... it continues and grows in popularity.

What I'm seeing is what my instructors beat into my head as completely inappropriate and wrong wrong wrong. The crank and spank. Crank that horse's head in to its chest - and in - and in - and then spur spur spur - lean into that curb - spur spur spur - force that horse into an extreme position with the curb, when it slows, then get some semblance of motion using the spur.

So the horse cannot go forward - and cannot go backward - he can't rear, he can't buck. So you get the boing boing boing and an extremely tense horse.

Now would you want to take such a horse - a horse that has become accustomed to excessively heavy aids - and is used to not moving until the rider cranks on his mouth or spurs him - would you want to take him on a xc course? I wouldn't - not for all the tea in China. I'd be scared for both of us.

Not a very elegant way of putting it I admit -and others have a far more eloquent way of describing it - and I'm not against using different methods in an attempt to overcome a training problem, or to encourage a horse to develop its topline, etc.

But excessive use of the curb and spur - especially to produce an artificial result - just isn't appropriate.

That's what I'm seeing in those videos. Extreme crank and spank. I don't care if it's Anky - or Mother Theresa; it makes no difference to me. I'm not the groupie type, and I don't idolize people - so really - I don't care who's doing it.

And doccer makes another good point - and we've seen it here on this BB. The trickle down effect. The "you're just jealous of Anky and you don't have any gold medals" defense", etc.

How long before we see local dressage shows packed with Training level riders emulating Anky? Hell - we've got judges penalizing Intro and Training level riders for not being on the bit - when it isn't even a requirement for that level. How ong before judges start rewarding lower level riders for this type of riding?

Personally - I hope the FEI puts its foot down and defines what methods will be considered appropriate in warmup - and then have the Stewards yank a few riders out and eliminate them if those rules are not followed. If other sports have to do it - so should dressage. Dressage isn't the noble lofty art that has been claimed - it needs scrutiny just like the other sports.

I am sorry does anyone find this pretty? I find it cruel and the horse is so uncomfortable. I think I saw somewhere in the beginning the horse twitching his lip that usually means something is bothering him. My God there cannot be someone that sees this beautiful and great. The horse defiantly looks forced and there is nothing beautiful about it. Plain disgusting.

On our local NC board we have a Rollkur discussion underway in our Voice for the Horses forum which is dedicated to horse welfare. I am going to copy paste some of the comments from non dressage riders for you to read. Many of these folks are pleasure riders, western show folks, and games riders. These comments were after seeing the Horses for Life site...and only the last poster has had a look at the videos. I posted the link over there as well this evening after seeing these videos earlier. Take heed dressage folks...this is what other disciplines are saying....

"ok, here is my personal opinion:

This is a sad case of wanting a certain look. A bowed neck does look pretty if held in a ergonomically correct manner. This is not. Aside from it's just not possibly being comfortable for the horse, it must be physically damaging as well. The horse look stressed. Just try holding your own neck in that position and see how long before you can't stand it anymore. But you can stop when you want. Nuff said."

"How do they expect the horses to fully use themselves when they can't even get their heads out of their chest?? There's no way they can fully use their hindquarters and really round themselves while having to carry their neck in such a way.

That's really sad that it's come to that..."

"Those horses look like they are in total agony. Every discipline has its fair share of cruel training methods but that is just soooo un-natural."

"I am adding to this post only because I am blown away by the way humans treat horses in the name of winning and training.

I know nothing, or very little about dressage and even less about this cruel way of riding. I just know it is pathetic and unnecessary.

I really do not understand why anyone wants to ride this way....what possible purpose does it serve? What possible reason did it come about, who started it and why?

If it is so hurtful (and it certainly is) , then WHY do judges and trainers allow it? These are questions I know we cannot answer, but certainly should make us think about why we show and what we get out of it.

Do we show because WE want to win, or because it helps us understand our horses better...what made this way of training and riding come about?"

"Not only is it cruel, but what exactly is the twisted logic behind using such a method? Those horses are behind the bit, which is not at all what you want in dressage."

"That's so wrong. I would love to have the skill and resources these riders have, but what do they do with them? The torture their partners! It's unreal!"

"OMG. I don't know much about dressage, and have only seen pics of this for the first time now. I never even knew horses necks could bend like that!! I always thought their neck helped them balance, how in the world does that help them balance? And, now this may be a stupid question, but is there supposed to be THAT much tension on the shanked bit at all times?"

I think this last comment of the poster who watched the video is very damning. She is a western rider. If SHE could see that tension on the curb, you know it's not an illusion.

I think this last comment of the poster who watched the video is very damning. She is a western rider. If SHE could see that tension on the curb, you know it's not an illusion."

Of course is damning. My SO could see this also and know its wrong. It IS wrong. I am sorry Anky. It is wrong.

Well these videos are bad enough but thinking about horses being ridden like this EVERY DAY and not just in a warm up makes my whole body hurt.

I just wish those who use the method would state it up front - so those who oppose it won't find out a horse they bred or had owned is living in this torture chamber.

It's folks like you who are responsible for this training technique. You see... you are so blinded by your hero worship of Anky that you can't see what almost every other horseperson see's. A horse that is NOT HAPPY and is moving unnatural!!!!!! Dressage is supposed to be the ultimate in harmony between horse and rider. But watching Anky and her horses in the ring has always looked to me like watching performing Circus horses. The movements of her horses look Unnatural... Extravagent... Yes.. but not natural.

Why do judges award that? Horse's don't move that way on their own.. so why would a judge think a big high front end with a back end that doesn't match is something to inspire to?

I'm ashamed of the judges who only look at the front end of a horse and not his entire top line and back end engagement. It is indeed the International Dressage Community of Judges who have created Anky and her like. If they would simply abhor the extreme flamboyant moves and look at them as what they are... unnatural flamboyant movements from horses who have been subjected to extreme controlling trick training techniques.

But I'm curious…..if the ends does indeed justify the means would you agree with putting ginger up a horses rear because they lift thier tail higher in the saddlebreds? I mean it doesn't Harm them.. it only irritates them right? It's the same thing to me..

AND when they do find out that the horses are harmed (and I can't believe that you can't see these horses are stressed and unhappy... or don't care)... when the FEI finally decides it is harmful, will you still defend this training trick?

I have had the pleasure of watching circus horses trained, and I suspect that the trainer would be insulted by this analogy--her horses were not being forced.

They were happy.

In fact, I was asked to find a home for one of her liberty stallions, because, although he was going through the motions, he was not happy in his job.

(It was a hoot to be able to advertise said stallion as "bombproof--not afraid of elephants.")

Funny you should say that...from watching video #2, I actually thought her upper body and hands looked very much like some of the warm-ups I've seen from the WP/HUS people. When the video gets to around 1:30 and you have a front view of the horse/rider, pause it and take a look. That pose is what reminded me. (Don't flame me WP people...by this I mean when "peanut pushers" were the IN thing, and people schooled with wide set piano hands and draw reins or training forks) The only difference I guess, is (and I hate saying this) I think some of the WP people are a bit more forgiving with the chin-to-the-chest thing, nowadays anyway. I like dressage, but I'll pass if *that* is what it takes to get anywhere. I don't care who it is doing it.

...boy, the more I think about it, the more similarities I've seen with WP and dressage in these videos. Except, the AQHA has actually taken initiative and responsibility, and has made an active effort to eliminate peanut pushers, and thus the methods used to achieve the desired dramatic, instant effect...for the good of the horse.

I have few questions. Did someone teach Anky to ride like that? Where did she come up with this? Is it just the look that she likes? I mean I really want to know what a person thinks when they force their horse into this form. Does she really think it's correct and a better way to ride the horse? Personally I think that's screwing up the horse not teach it or ride it. In that video you can see other riders ride and I have not seen anyone but her ride the horse this way.

Hmmm - I saw the opposite - and tell you what I also saw - I saw folks who insist rollkur is only done for a moment, that it does not involve force, and that it is a stretching exercise - well - they were blown out of the water.

If Rollkur is an exercise, and if Rollkur is only done for a moment - then WHY are we constantly seeing this practice engaged in for minutes on end??? You see - that is one of the justification of the practice - that is NOT done for any length of time.

What you see as Salierno getting better all the time, could also be interpreted that the judges are rewarding a caricature of dressage. It's seen at all levels of the sport - even at Intro and Training for God's sake. Go to a little schooling show and see how the judges penalize riders at training level for their horses not exhibiting the requirements of 2nd level. It's amazing.

I don't know why you two seem so fascinated by Anky - and focused on her as some sort of guru - no one else seems to be - we're all pretty much focusing on the method and its application.

I don't these horses and riders as the epitome of dressage - in fact - I think they are a real detriment to the reputation of the sport, and the FEI too scared - for whatever reason, to simply work out a definition everyone can live with, and that can be implemented and enforced should deviations occur in the warmup/at shows. Just like eventing - the TD will yank a rider so fast it will make your head spin.

That is not unreasonable.

I know this for a fact. What you guys know is based on second hand information based on your limited understanding of her methods and your exposure to a clearly bias website designed by someone you don't even know

Actually I know based on my extensive background in dressage, the videos which are not clearly biased, but are indeed videos - no matter what's written around them (believe me, I am not influenced by the news media either, only the facts in the case).

I know based on all of the classical texts, which are supposed to be the foundation of dressage. I know based on the horses that I have retrained that have been trained using this method. I know based on watching videos not associated with the sites of performances of both Anky and other riders.

I know based on 20 years of riding hunters. I know based on 5 years of riding eventers. I know based on my dressage cross training for all of those 25 years.

I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand. All our lives we get the "FALSE FRAME" words thrown at us and then we watch a crank and spank and get told that we "just don't get it".

What more can I say? I do not see improvement in Salinero. In fact, I do not see stellar performances. I see trick ponies. I see horses who are compensating for these methods by their natural extravagent movement. I do not see "amazing results" - I see oddness - unclassical - undressage (yes, I coined that).

But it still goes against all the principles of Dressage, I dont care what the end results are! or who does it. Why is it all about the medals?? NEver mind, Dont bother answering that! None of my other questions have ever been answered on any of these threads!

One of the justifications of Rollkur - outside of the discussion of it on the COTH BB - is that indeed - it is ONLY used for a moment. Regardless of who the rider is, - the position is forced by excessive use of the curb for extended periods of time.

This is, simply, unacceptable. Regardless of who is doing it, who is rewarding it, and who is justifying it. Considering how much Anky is using the curb on these videos, I shudder to think what she's "teaching" to western riders in Europe.

I think you have a serious case of hero worship. It's touching, but in the end - heroes have a way of letting us down when the lights come up and we see that, like anyone else, they're just trying to make a living. Warts and all.

I think the problem is that some see suppling and the rest of us see a horse turned into a pretzel. Not only is the horse obviously being held in this position with some level of force...the curb, the spur, the hand, the position, but it's being done for extended periods of time....not just a few minutes of stretching like you might see more temperate trainers do at the beginning of their rides.

One of the videos appeared to me like the horse didn't know quite where to place his back feet. Pretend for a moment that his head was not at his chest and simply examine the movement. Is is fluid? Is it balanced? Is it confident? No. Shouldn't the movement of an upper level dressage horse be all of this and more? I would certainly believe so.

I will not presume to know whether or not Anky is performing RK correctly, or whether or not it is scientifically beneficial or detrimental. But to my classical dressage trained eye, I see movement that is explosive without grace. Does that make sense? If Grand Prix dressage is the pinnacle of lightness, and harmony, and flexibility, and power, then why do I feel like I'm watching a ballerina in a costume that's three sizes too small?

Still not getting this and a couple other things that confuse me.

- It would seem that according to her Salinero was/is a very difficult and talented horse and that this RK/Hyperflexion method is the only way she could get a world cup performance out of this rank horse no one wanted?

BUT, why does this method or suppling exercise(as you call it?) have to be used before EVERY performance?

WHY, does RK/Hyperflexion seem to have to be used not only with Salinero, but also Idool and KrackC and by numerous other riders on other horses?

Also, maybe Oaksbrea could explain from a Hunter trainers viewpoint

(maybe I could better understand)

In video #5 (KrackC) I am sorry, but that horse seems to be very unbalanced leaning thru the corners.

I understand getting a horse on the aids in a warm up...but to have a GP horse that OFF the aids before a performance????

Something just isn't making any sense here. AND in numerous other videos/tapes/live performances by Anky and other riders.

sybryant and nero, please don't take this as being rude...I am truly trying to understand.

claire

It has nothing to do with fascination or a guru-ism! It is about the BEAUTY of a completely loose and supple horse who can move across the ground with freedom and great athleticism and is not being stiffled by a human in any way what-so-ever!!

Not stifled by a human in any way? Waterskiing on the curb isn't stifling? I do not see completely loose and supple horses moving with freedom and athleticism I see a new reality show called "Crank and Spank Extreme"

We HAVE to be watching different videos. double check your link.

And - it's like watching a ballerina in a costume 3 sizes too small.

I can't believe the dressage community is just now deciding that the results Anky & other riders using these training methods are not "real" dressage!

The judges need to be hung from the yardarms (if you can find a yardarm near a dressage ring) for continually thinking this is "dressage" or even good riding. I was puzzled and aghast when Anky won the Volvo Cup back when it was held in Los Angeles (what was that? 8-some years ago?), and I didn't know her (or dressage) from a dog's butt. No one was talking about RK, or anything else back then, or if they were, it was in whispers. There was no "vendetta" -- and, as I said, I considered myself a total dressage ignoramus. But I knew horses, and I had eyes, and I could see. And all the stuff that I thought dressage was (like lightness and partnership and expression and elegance) was mostly missing from her ride.

In the end, I just couldn't believe this person had won the competition because her horse looked stiff, unhappy and totally without grace.

Rather than pilloring the poor woman NOW, after a decade+ of rewarding her, the dressage community needs to start doing a serious shake down of the judging and judges.

The end result of her training methods have been winning everything in sight for all this time, so of course other riders are going to start imitating it. But if they hadn't been winning, this kind of crap would have been shut down immediately, and RK would have never been an issue.

So again, I need to ask: what the heck have the judges been seeing all these years that they thought was so fantastic? Nothing has changed in Anky & her clones' training methods nor has the final results changed.

How come so few people were "aghast" then, but now it's ok to be so righteously indignant?

And I feel really sorry for Anky -- all this time she has been rewarded at the highest level. Then, suddenly -- BOOM! Ohmygawd -- LOOK WHAT THAT CRUEL WOMAN IS DOING !!!(cut to faces showing shock & outrage). Well, s**t, people -- she's been doing it for years! You guys loved it 10 years ago -- why don't you love it now?

A clue -- the emperor was naked a L-O-N-G time ago and it's kind of sad it has taken this long for everyone to see.

OK -- I'm going to go away now and prepare for the stoning....

Kyzteke

I can only speak for myself - but I NEVER loved it and when the subject was brought up - would say exactly what I've been saying this time around.

All I want done is the FEI to act like it has balls and set some definitive parameters - and then stick with it.

The judges need to be hung from the yardarms (if you can find a yardarm near a dressage ring) for continually thinking this is "dressage" or even good riding. I was puzzled and aghast when Anky won the Volvo Cup back when it was held in Los Angeles (what was that? 8-some years ago?), and I didn't know her (or dressage) from a dog's butt. No one was talking about RK, or anything else back then, or if they were, it was in whispers. There was no "vendetta" -- and, as I said, I considered myself a total dressage ignoramus. But I knew horses, and I had eyes, and I could see. And all the stuff that I thought dressage was (like lightness and partnership and expression and elegance) was mostly missing from her ride.

In the end, I just couldn't believe this person had won the competition because her horse looked stiff, unhappy and totally without grace.

Rather than pilloring the poor woman NOW, after a decade+ of rewarding her, the dressage community needs to start doing a serious shake down of the judging and judges.

The end result of her training methods have been winning everything in sight for all this time, so of course other riders are going to start imitating it. But if they hadn't been winning, this kind of crap would have been shut down immediately, and RK would have never been an issue.

So again, I need to ask: what the heck have the judges been seeing all these years that they thought was so fantastic? Nothing has changed in Anky & her clones' training methods nor has the final results changed.

How come so few people were "aghast" then, but now it's ok to be so righteously indignant?

And I feel really sorry for Anky -- all this time she has been rewarded at the highest level. Then, suddenly -- BOOM! Ohmygawd -- LOOK WHAT THAT CRUEL WOMAN IS DOING !!!(cut to faces showing shock & outrage). Well, s**t, people -- she's been doing it for years! You guys loved it 10 years ago -- why don't you love it now?

A clue -- the emperor was naked a L-O-N-G time ago and it's kind of sad it has taken this long for everyone to see.

OK -- I'm going to go away now and prepare for the stoning....

I gues its too little too late!

__________________

I don't feel sorry for Anky - because if you have to compromise your ethics to win ribbons, then you didn't have any to begin with.

However, that being said - I didn't know about rollkur 10 years ago. I didn't watch the warmup rounds of Anky. I can only react when I know about it. 10 years ago I was quite busy having children and riding my own d*mn horses.

There were people that once found out, started speaking out about it. But like anything else - it takes a long darn time to get a grassroots movement started. Look how long it took to get information out there about AIDS, about slavery, about anything else...*laughing* It's rediculous to think that we'd all be able to move that quickly - it takes a long freaking time.

The poor horse was constantly spooking and scooting because with his head in that position--he could not see where he was going. He should have bucked her @$$ off!!! That is what she deserves.

My thoughts exactly--the horse cannot see and is just trusting the rider and trying to please. He looks VERY uncomfortable. And just HOW does she get him to do that--pulling on his mouth and squeezing him on?

Correction: it was Anky's biggest fan, but couldn't take NO for an answer when she asked Anky to support her new publications.

I am sorry….; are you trying to say the videos/photos are published by someone who has a vendetta against AvG?

So, you then feel the videos/photos of this warm-up show RK/LDR in a less than favorable light?

…… says that the videos/photos show [quote]
"a completely loose and supple horse who can move across the ground with freedom and great athleticism" NOT what I would think the stuff a person with a vendetta would want to publish?

OR are you saying that these videos/photos have been tampered with and changed?

Because if so, I would think it would be justification for a pretty big law suit.

See, I have been sincerely trying to understand. But there is just so much that does not make any sense.

I read the article that Coreene posted and Sjef describes his RK/LDR system one way...yet there are videos and photos and first hand eyewitnesses (other than the vendetta person ) who describe the RK/LDR system as what was in these photos/videos????

That horse is struggling to comply, he stumbles or hops behind, Jumps forward, Looks extremly unhappy, and gaits are stilted behind. There is just no way I would consider that a picture of an athletic horse, Well maybe he is because he is making a hell of an effort blind with his chin to his chest

I keep asking if what I saw in those videos wasn't a very unbalanced horse/and what the purpose of such a warm up was/and if that was "GOOD" RK as it was being done by the world-class RK specialist.But, I am an uneducated beginner so...

I am just not getting this back and forth: either those videos are representing a pretty awful ride (and so the vendetta thing could make sense) but then the RK/LDR method leaves a lot to be desired...

OR as a couple pros here post: the videos show a lovely athletic warm-up ride (in which case how does the vendetta scenerio work?)

Which IS it????

It's a video for freaksake. What you see is what you see. Without the titles and comments one should still be able to establish an opinion as to whether they are attracted to this type of riding or not. One person sees freedom of gaits, relaxation, regularity and truly classical training with a happy horse. Others see it for abuse and the crank and spank and a horse forced into a frame and stuck in his lot in life unable to break free and use his body to it's full potential. Now how those two opposite and opposing opinions can be established from the exact same video is what amazes me. Kinda reminds me of how republicans and democrats see the war in iraq

If we saw this type of riding in some warm up arena in a small show in amerika we would be aghast at the entire picture.

I was actually agreeing with you, I see what you are seeing, I really dont get the skipping and hopping behind, someone said he is startled by other horses coming by as his field of vision is obscured, others said it is jumping forward in copliance with the spur, But I dont see a relaxed supple athletic horse, Certainly a very trusting soul.

Keep in mind that one of Germany and Holland's biggest industries is the horse industry! I sometimes

wonder if we are not being used as pawns because the USofA is their best/most-money-spending client. And, unfortunately, we might not always buy where the best training is happening, but where the horses are winning.

Degree 1, 2 ,3 of hyperflexion

I'm also a bit saddened by the fact that the discussion has come to revolve around a few riders from one country in Europe. It may be more common there than anywhere else, and they may have a more thought-out strategy than most other users of rollkur, but they are not the only ones who use it. They seem to be almost the only ones who admit to using it, though. And my hat is off to them for that.

I don't think most people who discuss on BB like this one has actually stood and watched how they warm up. Someone said the on-lookers have their arms crossed in front of their chests, and interpret that as some kind of disproval, but I would say hardly. This is the big national competition. Most people there know that this is what it looks like when the riders think they are out of sight of unfriendly media. My guess is that the audience fully accept this type of training and see it as an everyday thing.

I would call this Degree 2. This is what they do when preparing for an important competition, so they give it their best, knowing people will see it.Degree 1 is what they show on commercial tapes and in clinics, and also what they describe in articles and lectures.Degree 3 is what we never see. What happens at home when there's no students or grooms around.

I think these degrees go for ALL professional horsepeople, in that they take care to show certain things in certain settings, and some training "tools" are best kept at home. Everyone has a rep ro protect.

At least I think they are being relatively honest. Here in Sweden, you can see similar things at closed warm-ups, if you for some reason are allowed in. But do the riders come out and speak about how they train? No. We have the formidable drawreins in the curb bit combined with a long whip in each hand. Does anyone speak about it? No. Dang, I whish I could get into the arena and photograph that some day.

I have tried to get any kind of information from the vast number of German riders who also ride this way (rollkur), some type of article or report on their training sessions. But no. The only ones are from Uphoff and Thiess and they are age old. Those Germans who do it, keep quiet about it. Maybe because of the Reitlehre, which all elderly coaches and trainers referr to. Because rollkur goes against THE RULES and that's a bad thing, breaking the rules. I get a feeling in Holland they don't have the Reitlehre, and feel that rules as such are meant to be broken if they limit personal freedom. I can see that point of view, too. It's like the Danes, who shake their heads at us Swedes and complain that everything is forbidden in Sweden. There's some truth to it.

I would like to see some prominent German/Swedish/Danish/Australian and US riders who use this method or similar methods, come out and say so, and explain how they think it works. I bet they haven't thought it through half as much as the Dutch.

many of the riders seem to have thrown out the bottom of the 'training pyramid' as their horses no longer show rhythm/regularity/relaxation - but perhaps they can substitute additional contact

If the purpose of RK is to achieve the ultimate level of suppleness and engagement, someone please explain to me why in video 6, the rider is bringing her horse's nose to his chest at a standstill. I'm sorry, I just can't figure that one out, particularly when I can see her right hand very firmly pulling his head.

I just watched 6 and after that halt she also goes back to trot, then after the long side, she has he right hand back by her waist! ???

if you hadn't said it was Anky, I NEVER would have thought she could look so awful on a horse. My God.

No wonder Klaus wants the warm-up to be judged.

"Lifting the forehand is a consequence of the lowering of the hindquarters produced by their greater engagement. It is an indication and a consequence of collection. In a correctly collected horse the croup and buttock muscles of the engaged hindquarters exert a powerful tug downwards and backwards upon the muscles of the back connected to them, thus lifting the chest and neck vertebrae of the spine and taking some of the load off the forehand. The more the neck is stretched forwards and upwards, the easier contact with the bit becomes. As the absolute length of the neck remains the same and the elongation of its upper edge becomes even greater (see pp. 262-3), the neck must rise if the horse's nose is held vertical, so that the distance from mouth to hand and hence the length of the reins becomes shorter. The steps of the front legs become loftier, corresponding to the reduction of the load on the forehand." (From Horsemanship by Waldemar Seunig)

What Waldemar Seunig described in the above paragraph is not what I am seeing in horses that have been trained in zwangsjacke. Instead it looks to me like the horses are using their heads and necks as levers to elevate the haunches, often giving the horses an appearance of tippy-toeing behind. Even on the occasions where the haunches are somewhat bent, they don’t appear to be carrying a significant amount of weight.

Is that the top 10 are allowed to use a method that "has the potential for being harmful in the hands of amateur riders and should only be used by a handful of qualified riders in the world".

This method is not part of the FEI guidelines as they have stood since FEI was founded.

Basically, we are saying that the best in the sport do not have to follow the rules of the sport.

The beauty of dressage, at whatever level it is practised is that it can be used on any horse by any rider provided they have access to correct instruction. The principles were the same, whether you ride an appaloosa, a mule, or an Olympic champion. Now, they are not.

How is that good for dressage?

I am not talking about riding very deep and round but riding hyperflexion.

Karoline

I am wondering ,is there any way an observer /, judge could know that the horses are trained wih roll kur? Is salineros' highih score the result of, or in spite of rollkur?

I wonder if HilaryClayton could find a way show the additional stress, especially on the frontlegs resulting from rk?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carol Ames

I wonder if HilaryClayton could find a way show the additional stress, especially on the frontlegs resulting from rk?

ahhh - but an RKer could just reply 'less stress on hind end' since the horses are not taking the weight behind

Hi All ,

I found your web address posted on another site so thought I'd Take a look.

WOW !!!!! Thankyou , Thankyou , Thankyou.....

For years my Trainer and myself have discussed till we are blue in the face about how dangerous and just down right wrong , some of the modern training of dressage horses is.Years later and finally good people like you are speaking out about it.I got so diheartened by the whole pull them and push them brigade I gave up having any thoughts of competing in the dressage world almost before I had got started.My trainer also so sick and tired of battling against the 'Quick fix' type riders also gave up teaching.

Seeing your articles has renewed my faith in humanity and I dare to hope that eventually Horses will be allowed to become horses again and not machines to bolster their riders ego.
I have just bought a 12mnth old Lusitano and I know for certain she will be one horse that never has to endure what these other poor buggers ( scuse the language) are having to go through.
Thankyou for standing up for what you believe in and trying to make a difference to those beautiful souls that have no voice....

Rachel Holliday

p.s if there is anyway I can help just let me know.

**Geplaatst**: 03-07-06 19:35

Re: DVD met discussie over LDR uitgebracht door Ulhrike Tiel

Geplaatst: 03-07-06 19:35

Gefeliciteerd arie53, deze post is waarschijnlijk een vermelding waard in het Guiness Book of Records. Haha!

Leuk voor als iemand niets te doen heeft.

**Geplaatst**: 03-07-06 21:27

Re: DVD met discussie over LDR uitgebracht door Ulhrike Tiel

Geplaatst: 03-07-06 21:27

Halleluja! Haal dan tenminste de enters er tussenuit. Dat leest wat makkelijker...

**Geplaatst**: 03-07-06 23:18

Re: DVD met discussie over LDR uitgebracht door Ulhrike Tiel

Geplaatst: 03-07-06 23:18

pfff dit is werk van iemand met veel te veel vrije tijd!!!
Clown

**Geplaatst**: 03-07-06 23:32

Re: DVD met discussie over LDR uitgebracht door Ulhrike Tiel

Geplaatst: 03-07-06 23:32

In Word zijn het iig 80 pagina's, 25.000 woorden, 157.000 letters Haha!

en bijna 4000 regels... Clown

Vind je het erg als ik die tekst oversla? Haha!

Ik wacht wel op een samenvatting of wanneer ie op film uitkomt Tong uitsteken

**Geplaatst**: 04-07-06 00:38

Re: DVD met discussie over LDR uitgebracht door Ulhrike Tiel

Geplaatst: 04-07-06 00:38

Apart dat Dr. Nicholson op haar site schrijft dat ademtekort een gevolg is van rijden in het teepotmodel maar in de mail die arie aanhaalt (de eerste reactie is van haar, dus je hoeft het hele verhaal niet door te lezen Bloos

), het opeens heeft over de relatie tussen LDR en ademen Verward

**Geplaatst**: 04-07-06 07:34

Re: DVD met discussie over LDR uitgebracht door Ulhrike Tiel

Geplaatst: 04-07-06 07:34

Dit bewijst maar weer eens dat er mensen zijn met véél te veel vrije tijd... Haha!

Misschien kunnen ze vrijwilligerswerk doen voor Brookes Hospital for Animals? Dat is tenminste een nuttige besteding van tijd! Vork

**Geplaatst**: 04-07-06 08:07

Re: DVD met discussie over LDR uitgebracht door Ulhrike Tiel

Geplaatst: 04-07-06 08:07

IEEKS