Bokt.nl

**Geplaatst door de TopicStarter** : 26-10-03 11:06

Kaspische pony

Geplaatst door de TopicStarter : 26-10-03 11:06

Na het overlijden van mijn vorige paard (alweer zo'n 10/11 jaar geleden) zag ik ergens een foto van een pony dat sprekend mijn paard was maar dan in mini formaat (1/2 arabier-1/2 engels volbloed) en ik was meteen verkocht.
Nooit ben ik er achter kunnen komen van welk ras deze pony op de foto nou was (dit heeft wel de grondslag gelegd voor mijn mini gekte, alles wat klein is, is al snel goed bij mij Haha!

) tot ik de Bit van deze maand kocht en daar stond een heel artikel in over het Kaspische paardje.
Ze zijn van 1mtr tot 1.20m ongeveer en er zijn er niet veel van.
Dit is dus de pony die ik jaren geleden op de foto heb gezien en die ik nog steeds niet ben vergeten!

Wie heeft info over dit ras of weet waar ik het kan vinden? (liefst op i-net) en misschien.....zit er wel iemand op Bokt met een Kaspische pony waar ik deze kanjer(s) eens irl kan bewonderen?
Ik wil heel graag eens zien hoe deze diertjes er in het echt uitzien maar ben ook op zoek naar een site waar ik veel info kan vinden voor ik besluit naar Engeland te gaan en ga proberen er een veulen van te bemachtigen (eerst even sparen Haha!

) en dat schijnt nog niet mee te vallen omdat er zo weinig zijn worden ze niet snel verkocht......

Ik denk dat dit het ras is waar ik al eigenlijk jaren naar op zoek ben en na het zien van dit diertje in het echt kan ik besluiten of ik in dat ras door wil gaan (mijn andere kanjers gaan niet weg hoor)

Dus wie o wie heeft er misschien 1 staan (en dan wel een raszuivere want anders heb ik er nog niet veel aan Haha!

) of heeft info over dit ras?

Alvast bedankt!!!

**Geplaatst**: 26-10-03 12:57

Geplaatst: 26-10-03 12:57

Kun je geen contact opnemen met dat (nederlandse) vrouwtje van die Kaspische pony's uit de BIT? En anders aan de BIT vragen of ze jou met haar in contact kunnen brengen. Zo te lezen aan dat artikel zat zij aardig in de Kaspische pony's en heeft ze veel contacten.

**Geplaatst**: 26-10-03 13:05

Geplaatst: 26-10-03 13:05

De Caspian is een paard(je) net als de Sorraia en net als deze een oorspronkelijk en niet verwant ras.
De streek van oorsprong van de Caspian is op het moment te bezoeken.
Mocht je niet aan een Caspian kunnen komen, kijk dan eens naar een Sorraia. Die kun je uit de streek van oorsprong met relatief weinig moeite ophalen.

Veel geluk en plezier.

**Geplaatst door de TopicStarter** : 26-10-03 13:46

Geplaatst door de TopicStarter : 26-10-03 13:46

De Caspian komt uit Iran las in in Bit, en dat is mij iets te gortig Haha!

Maar er zijn er in Engeland zo'n 200.
Ik zal ook een mailtje naar Bit sturen om zo in contact te komen met Caroline (uit het artikel) maar was ook benieuwd of iemand hier op Bokt mijn interesse deelde en heel misschien zo'n kanjer heeft staan Haha!

Huertecilla, de Sorraia ken ik dus ook niet, heb je eventueel adressen van sites waar ik deze op kan bekijken of opzoeken?
Ik zal ook google eens raadplegen.

**Geplaatst**: 26-10-03 19:35

Geplaatst: 26-10-03 19:35

Sorraia pony's zijn vrijwel altijd grijs (wildkleur) volgens mijn boeken tenminste, en komen oorspronkelijk uit spanje

**Geplaatst door de TopicStarter** : 27-10-03 02:14

Geplaatst door de TopicStarter : 27-10-03 02:14

Hmm, nou ik heb ze nog niet gevonden (heb ook nog niet echt goed gezocht hoor) maar ik zal morgen toch eens serieus gaan zoeken!

**Geplaatst**: 27-10-03 11:09

Geplaatst: 27-10-03 11:09

http://www.conquistador.com/sorraia.html
Hier staat iets over de Sorraia.

En dit gaat over Sorraia mustangs.... ik weet niet of dat hetzelde is?
http://community-2.webtv.net/AlmostaRanchero/Home/

en hier een heleboel links m.b.t. de Sorraia:

http://www.wilde-pferde.de/sorlinks.html

**Geplaatst door de TopicStarter** : 27-10-03 11:33

Geplaatst door de TopicStarter : 27-10-03 11:33

Thanks Tindra OK dan!

**Geplaatst**: 27-10-03 15:10

Geplaatst: 27-10-03 15:10

Hierbij dan twee stukjes. Let wel, inmiddels is door een uitgebreid genetisch onderzoek naar de verwantschap tussen paardenrassen, paarden uit een specifieke regio, de Prezwalski, premafrost-mummies en ijsfossielen vast komen te staan dat de Sorraia en Iberiërs niet verwant zijn.
De Sorraia is hoogstwaarschijnlijk een oerpaardje net als de Caspian en de teruggefokte 'Tarpan' de Konik. Er zijn meer soorten/rassen wilde paardjes geweest, maar deze zijn opgegaan in hun gedomsticeerde afstammelingen.

Op de Feria de Ganado in Veléz Málaga afgelopen maand had ik bíjna een 3-jarige Sorraia-merrie gekocht: zó mooi! Maar helaas hebben wij daar, juist omdat het een wereld van verschil is met onze iberiërs, niets aan en zitten we ook gewoon vol. Heb de blonde Percheron ook laten staan en een schítterende 'palomino' Noriker dekhengst met pijn in mijn hart niet genomen.

Stuk 1: Sorraia
Also Known As: Marismeño (Spain)

The Sorraia horse has no history as a domestic breed, but is the last remnant of the indigenous wild horse of southern Iberia. It stands around 14 h.h. Captured animals have been broken to ride and used for herding the fighting bulls and other livestock. This small horse was the primary ancestor of the famous horses of Andalusian and Lusitania and, both directly and indirectly, ancestor to many horses throughout Europe and the Americas. The Sorraia is found portrayed faithfully in prehistoric cave art, displaying the classic Iberian convex profile, also found in the old-time North African Barb. The Portuguese scientist Ruy D' Andrade, who had discovered them in 1920 in the lowlands of the Portuguese River Sorraia, named these horses "Sorraia".

The Sorraia is nearly extinct. A few herds are maintained in half a dozen places in Portugal and a few places in Germany.

The Sorraia is noted for its ability to withstand extremes of climate, particularly dry, hot climates, and to survive on very little forage while at the same time maintaining its health. Its' hardiness, as well at its agility and ability to collect and work in the bridle, once made the Sorraia highly valuable to local stockmen. Too long-legged to be seriously considered a pony type, the Sorraia is a small horse.

Old documents indicate that these horses were taken to the Americas by the Spanish conquistadors. Sorraia blood in the Americas is evident, as several breeds in both North and South America bear the dun and grullo coloration and other physical characteristics of this ancient horse. Furthermore, DNA analyses of American mustangs have shown similar and even identical DNA patterns to that of the Sorraia.

The Sorraia is always dun or grullo in color, with a dark face/muzzle area, black dorsal stripe, black-tipped ears, usually zebra stripes on the legs, and sometimes a stripe across the shoulders, or even stripes across neck, shoulders, and back. The black mane and tail are fringed by lighter-colored, often almost white, hair. The pure Sorraia does not have white markings, and does not show infusion of either Oriental or North European blood. Sorraia foals are born with a zebra-like pattern all over.

The head is somewhat long, with a convex profile. The eyes are set high, the ears are fairly long; the neck is long and slender, the withers are prominent and well defined; the back is of medium length and straight; the croup is sloping, but not steeply dropping, and rafter-shaped when viewed from front or behind; the tail set is not particularly high or low, but the tail is never held very high, not even when the horse is excited; the chest is deep and narrow; the shoulder is long; the legs are straight with rather long, round cannon bones, well defined tendons, long, sloped pasterns, and hard hooves of dark color.

The Sorraia and the North African Barb probably had a common root due to the pre-historic land bridge at Gibraltar (wat dus níet klopt!)

Deel 2:
The Sorraia Horse (Part I)

Written in 1945 by Ruy d´Andrade,

Taken from an article on Boletim Pecuário XIII, 3, Lisbon

Habitat — The Sorraia or Zatas River, is an important tributary joining the south bank of the Tagus where its waters are already salty, is formed by the joining of various tributaries all springing from the province of Alto Alentejo.

The most important being the Sor and the Raia, which form a confluence near 'Couço', the name Sorraia derives from the combination of the two (Sor + Raia).

Sorraia River close to Benavente
(Source: http://www.ribatejo.com/)

The Sor, which has its source in the S. Mamede mountains northeast of Tolosa; flows through this village and later is complemented on both banks by various tributaries among which are the Ribeira de Salgueiro and the Ribeira da Margem always flowing NNE-SSW, flows past Ponte de Sor after which it runs dose to Montargil and joins the Raia between Santo António do Couço and Santa Justa.

The Raia River, in its turn, results from the union of two other streams — the Ribeira de Seda and the Ribeira de Tera.

The Ribeira de Seda derives from the fusion of different streams that come down from the Serra de S. Mamede and join together until Prada, crossing afterwards the old land of Aviz, where it bathes the village of Seda that gives name; from here, it goes down to Benavila where it receives upstream the Ribeira de Sarrazola, to which flow waters from the territory of Alter do Chão, Alter Pedroso and Cabeço de Vide. From Benavila and approximately in the same direction, it runs until near the village of Aviz. The Ribeira of the same name comes upstream, and results, near the village of Figueira, from the convergence of the Ribeira de Sousel with the Ribeira Grande, this one coming from Assumar through Monforte and, from upstream to downstream, reinforced in the left bank by the Ribeira de Almuro which springs at the north of Borba and passes through Veiros and the Ribeira de Lupé. Finally strengthened by the Ribeira de Almadafe, it will join the Ribeira de Tera at southeast of Cabeço, already in the district of Mora.

The Ribeira de Tera which has its source in the Serra de Ossa, runs close by Pavia and joins the Ribeira de Seda forming the river Raia which flows from north of Mora and then in its turn joins the Sor between Santo António de Couço and Santa Justa, referred to above.

From where they meet onwards, the Sor and the Raia rivers together form the Sorraia, which, running more or less in latitudinal direction through low lands has a cold, humid climate, which floods easily. It takes in on its left bank the Ribeira de Divor and on its right the Ribeira de Erra, after which it flows through Coruche and Benavente and finally, but still meandering, it enters the arm of the Tagus at right angles flowing from Foz do Vau to Ponta da Erva bordering in the east side meadows of Vila Franca de Xira.

The Sorraia, being formed by such numerous streams, and having as its source, at an altitude of approximately 600 m, channels into the Tagus waters from its extensive river basin which spans 5.150 Sq. Km, covers most of the province of Alto Alentejo. This stretches from near the frontier and includes parts belonging to the local councils of Nisa, Portalegre, Gavião, Crato, Alter do Chão, Fronteira, Monforte, Elvas, Borba, Estremoz, Sousel, Arraiolos, Aviz, Ponte de Sor, Mora, Coruche, Salvaterra de Magos and Benavente.

The Raia itself, together with all its vast network, runs through various types of land and origins (Archaean, Cambrian, Siluvian and Miocene). The Sor, on the other hand, except at its source, has all its springs in Miocene land.

Excluding the Ribeira de Divor which flows through Archaean, Paleozoic, Miocene and Pliocene land, the actual Sorraia runs through Pliocene and modern soil only, the latter formed by alluvia which is carried down by its many tributaries, and which are then deposited in its basin.

Due to this and given the variety in the mineralogical composition of the lands of its broad bed, the Sorraia valley, which covers approximately 55 Km between Couço and Benavente comprises, regardless of the low percentage of lime, a very fertile plain although its productivity is highly contingent due to irregular irrigation.

On the high part of that basin, corresponding to the boroughs of Portalegre, Crato, Alter do Chão, Monforte, Sousel and Fronteira, there have always been excellent horses, of sufficient stature (1.54 m to 1.60 m), especially those of the Alter-Real breed, whose stud is situated in Alter do Chão, at an altitude of approximately 400 m.

The Reserve's cork tree environment
similar to that found at the Sorraia Valley

Conversely, on the land of the boroughs of Coruche, Salvaterra and others such as Vila Franca, 20 m above sea level, the horses have always been small (1.40 m to 1.50 m in height) and less distinct, although robust. The fact is that this land on which they are bred is poor in lime so that the horses there have been subject to a hard and deprived way of life.

Having completed this prologue, necessary to a more thorough knowledge of this matter, I shall proceed to present the reasons on which my argument is based to make a specific study of this small portion of our southern Iberian livestock, which, being far different from our northern pony is closer to the more developed Andalusian horse. I have proofs based on archaeological studies to say that the horsebreeds of the Iberia are clearly divided in two well distinct groups from local origin and development.

Sorraia Horse at the Reserve

To the first group, the Portuguese call it the 'garranos' (pony). And the Spaniards call it 'facas', 'galegas', 'asturianas' or 'navarras'. Today it inhabits the north of Spain and Portugal and stretches to the west along the Portuguese Atlantic coast almost as far as the Algarve; it spreads to the east right along the Pyrenees and is to be found on every mountain top at the centre of the Peninsula going as far as the Sierra Morena, the Sierra Nevada and even the heaths of Cancony.

This equine group, which I described in my book about the Garranos, is well defined as a mountain breed belonging to areas of greater rainfall where grass grows all year round and where there are no donkeys. It is a small (approximately 1.30 m), bay horse with a short pastern, a concave or straight profile, round orbits and Celtic type teeth.

This group has existed in the Peninsula since mid-Palaeolithic era; through the Metholithic and Neolithic and to this day has inhabited more or less extensive areas depending on the variations in glaciations in western Europe. This means that its existence in the Iberia is thousands of years old and must still hold almost pure specimens which amount to approximately 400.000 heads.

The people of the Peninsula do not regard it as a true horse but as a pony. The horse that interests us in this essay is another. It is a true horse, although of small stature, but not as small as the other (as we shall see, it averages 1.43 m).

Minho Garrano pony

This one is to be found in the south of the Peninsula and I suppose it is the remaining specimens of a fauna dating from the beginning of the Pleistocene era, which persisted throughout the anteglaciar period when there was a horse related to the Pleistocene horses of the Indian Sivalik hills, and therefore one of the oldest geological periods of Asiatic origin. It was to be found in Africa in the anteglaciar period (i.e. the last) where it may have survived throughout the preceding glacial period and also in the Hispanic southwest (Andalusia and the Algarve) or it may have retreated from Africa through the isthmus which existed before the Straits of Gibraltar were opened, which some believe to have occurred in the Tertiary era.

Having accepted their southern origin, and therefore pertaining to a hot region type, it is no surprise that this horse has more 'stenoniano' characteristics than the northern 'garrano'.

So it is not surprising that its teeth preserve this stenonian character, which is less developed.

Teeth, as we know, being among the most common archaeological finds, are the surest and most characteristic element when classifying animals. On examining them we can note that those of the E. Stenonis are distinguishable for having simple estilideon; protocone without talon and off centre; an advanced and developed hipocone; prega cabalina. Identical characters pertain to the horses of the south of the Peninsula and, among them, the Sorraias.

This means that the difference between the Sorraia Horse and the 'garrano' of the north lies in their dental characteristics, and for this reason we believe it to belong to a different variety from the species E. c. caballus. And in truth these teeth reoccur in both the Sorraia and the Andalusian horses of the purer breeds, with convex-shaped head profiles and the elliptical orbit shortened at the back, the base of the cranium at an angle to the forehead, the occipito-incisiva line below the orbit, the maxilla having a short ascending line curving at an obtuse angle.

Sorraia Horse at the Reserve

This horse type shares its habitat with the donkey: the steppe regions of dry, hard pasture for 5 months of the year, and for this reason the animals are forced to roam far, in order to feed and drink. In other words, it is a horse of a sub-desert climate with extremes in temperature and therefore having a long and lean musculature.

It does not have a 'garrano' shape; it is a true horse as we understand it here in the Peninsula, i.e., it is an equine like the Andalusian, the Lusitano and the Barb, its close relatives, (zucht) and more developed by domestication and by the variety produced by cross-breeding.

**Geplaatst door de TopicStarter** : 28-10-03 15:08

Geplaatst door de TopicStarter : 28-10-03 15:08

Dank je!Ik heb het uitgeprint en ga het zo even op mijn gemakje lezen Haha!